What can I do to stop misinterpretation of contact order?

[nocontactforevermore]

Ex took me to court last year over child contact. It didn't exactly achieve anything different than what he already had so was pretty unsuccessful in my eyes. He however boasts constantly about how it 'sorted me out'. Whatever. He is very manipulative however and both him and his wife are bullies. They are constantly misinterpreting the wording of the order and trying to force whatever new interpretation they've decided on me. Their latest move is to try and enforce something that means I lose a weekend as well as disrupting the rotation of future weekends that I had planned on my calendar.

I feel really worn down by them. Every time a longer holiday or half term comes around I get super lengthy emails composed by his wife (I can tell) that tie me up in knots and basically leave me so confused. I don't know what to do. This order has brought me no peace because he seeks any and every angle in the wording of that will allow him something extra. My sol said we need to try and sort it out because the judge will not want to see us back in court this soon, however he does not know what it's like to co-parent with an emotionally abusive person.

Please help:/

Thanks mutton.
We did have mediation before but it failed. His wife handles all the contact arrangements and arranging of dates. He hasn't a clue what he's doing from one week to the next on that front and is massively disorganised from a calendar point of view. He would never agree to mediation because wife wouldn't be there to arrange dates.

He whipped me into court when i wouldn't agree to change contact arrangements to suit his liking. He didn't get what he wanted, in fact he willingly dropped a night in talks, so his whole efforts were pointless. He also accepted my offer at the final heading despite rejecting it at the first and second so to this day I've no idea what he was playing at. He boasts frequently about 'winning' but I know from other sources he's extremely bitter at the cost of the proceedings.

If we go back to court it'll be him taking me. He will have to explain to a judge why he's doing that. I cannot ignore a court summons so won't take too kindly to a judge flipping out at me. I was like a frightened rabbit throughout the entire proceedings last time, didn't have a clue what to expect and took orders off just about everyone from the solicitors to the judge, like I was a criminal on trial. My ex used the court system to continue his abuse of me and I'll not waste any time getting that point across to a judge if he tries it on again.

You have my deepest sympathies for having to put up with this bastard - I have read many of your threads over the years and I really feel for you.

But if you back down re the weekend, he will do this again. And again. And again. Because he knows you will keep rolling over and letting him have his way.

Somehow you have to say "NO". And stick to it.

Offer mediation (in the knowledge that he will refuse).

Then go no contact - everything through solicitors, or single sentence email replies stating "contact my solicitor".

Once again, you have my sympathy - he is vile.

Could your DD's routine dental appointment - that you usually arrange as the RP - happen to be on Friday afternoon so she isn't at school to be collected? No need to tell him explicitly as it isn't his weekend. Or does he get prior notice of all routine appointments?

Thanks pumpkin, yes that's him. Yes he's vile! I've gone pretty much no contact in the sense that I don't respond to anything that isn't related to contact schedules, but of course he (wifey) finds a way to make contact with me leading up to each and every holiday time. The irony is, if I ever (rarely) make simple request for a swap for a holiday of my own or an event dd needs to attend, I get emails from him saying that I am harassing them and that the order is there is to guarantee he sees his child and it's disappointing I am trying to 'sabotage that'. One simple fucking request is met with pages and pages of bile of this nature. If he asks me for a swap I just reply with a quick yes. He is truly insufferable. His intention is to ensure I never ask for flexibility on any level and he achieves by writing pages and pages of indignation that I've even dared to ask.

Good idea about the dental appt to be honest!

This would be the benefit of sitting and working out the holiday dates well in advance, give them a copy and there is no need for them to contact you about it. I even put in who collects/drops off, where and when, just so there is no confusion. If you do this in September then they have enough notice to sort out their summer hols according to the dates given. I must admit I have only once asked to swap a weekend and that was only fairly recently, I wouldn't have given him the satisfaction when things were at their worst!

He sounds a twat!

nocontact there must be a way to stop this strangle hold over you. I wouldn't give in on the grounds that he may cause a fuss at school as I think he is counting on that. How many years are you going to let him/his wife dictate your life? If it's not his weekend then it's not his fucking weekend.

I would go and seek a new sympathetic solicitor and get the contact order better worded. If it took a judge to go mad at you it still would be worth it. The stress you must be under must be horrific constantly worrying about the next lot of demands , he is just wearing you down and it's working

Him and his wife sound disgusting.

This is probably going to be totally inappropriate but it is just a thought.

What about meeting his every demand for a specific change with

"brilliant! That'll be perfect. I have tickets for such and such that week"
and "oh, that's great, I was planning on organising a shopping trip with my friend, thank you SO much"

etc etc

Basically every single time act like it is just the best and most convenient thing for you ever and he's doing you a HUGE favour.

I wonder if that will stop him.

I mean, it's just a thought, you may feel free to tell me its an unworkable pile of crap

Whilst I agree with Nicky that it isn't up to you to 'make the rules and tell him how it is' it's equally not his role either which is what he (or the wife) seem to be doing. In fact he seems to be forcing you into a position where sensible negotiation isn't possible and you either have to give in or 'tell him how it is'. I'd try to pull back and try not to be forced into either position.

My DH is in a similar situation. The things he has found have helped are: he tries to always suggest as many alternatives options as possible, sometimes she will go for one of these; he doesn't 'count' days when his ex is being petty over a single day or two and looks at what would make a sensible pattern; She rarely if ever agrees to any flexibility but DH tries to accommodate as much flexibility as she requests when it in the childrens interest and even if it just suits her as we can't see that her being unreasonable justifies the same from us. In the court case that position stood DH in very good stead - rather than the fear of it setting up a status quo it just showed he was reasonable and she wasn't. The trick is to know where the bottom line is and then really aim to keep that. Let the rest wash over you and reply to any essays with only a few short lines discussing dates rather than responding to abuse or accusations.

This idea might not appeal in view of the EA but if he won't go to mediation alone then might you be able to go with someone and allow his wife to go too? I appreciate its nothing to do with her but if it's really her you're negotiating with then maybe it might help? I know of a similar situation where both partners attended to start with and then once the mediator had engaged them the partners didn't go to the next two sessions and progress was made. You'd need a good mediator of course but it really helped that case.

It sounds like working out some of the rules about how you apply the order should be the task and I think you should also work on getting an agreement that all dates are arranged once a year by a certain date. It's dreadful to be having to go through this every single holiday. Ideally you could have some discussion about flexibility too if things are going well but sometimes flexibility has to be worked up to gradually if it's causing masses of conflict.

When was the court order by the way? DH was told give it a year at least before working out whether it is working or not before considering returning to court. Hopefully he can avoid it altogether.

Honestly there is no way I could attend mediation with his wife. She's a bully. They are well matched.

With my ex, it never ever has been about me 'telling him how it is'. The man has MASSIVE insecurities and no doubt unsettling feelings about being the NRP. What this does to HIM is something he makes me suffer for. What it means for me is that every parenting decision I make, he attacks. Every minor change to the schedule I request, he attacks. From the minute he walked out, he has interpreted every single one of my movements as part of a grand master plan to remove him from dd's life. Nothing i did convinced him otherwise ( and I did plenty). When dd was a small baby there were two incidences where contact was cancelled because she was ill. He formed those incidences (and simply fabricated many others) as the basis of his court statement, painting me as an obstructive wicked and hostile parent who's only goal in life was to take dd away from him.

I cannot spend the rest of my days paying the price for how he really feels about himself. He couldn't provide a single shred of evidence in court to prove that I had denied contact all the times he said I did. He couldn't provide any evidence of the inadequate parent he said I practiced. None of that stopped him though because he genuinely believes it. Before anyone says 'well if this is how he interprets the situation, then something must be wrong'. No- I've had 7 years of this. Just because someone says they feel something doesn't make it true. I could say that I feel xyz - the only thing that should ever stand up in court is evidence, not feelings. I cannot help that he feels inadequate as a father, or guilty or less of a parent because he isn't there every day. That was his choice, and even if it wasn't his choice, no parent should ever be made to suffer for the fucked up feelings of the other.

What I am dealing with here is a most sinister level of paranoia. Straight up.

Twenty although not helpful to the OP in this case, I think that is a really sensible and measured post (I can think of many occasions in the past when it would have been very helpful when dealing with difficult situations!)

OP, I think Mishmash and Country's advice is spot on for you. DH had a similar situation with his ex; remembering the frustration and anguish caused by the slightest fraction of an opportunity to misinterpret a court order makes me feel a bit sick. DH now has a clear, very very defined order specifying virtually every little detail. It is fantastic. Good Luck!

Apologies nocontact - the comment that the RP should not be 'telling him how it is' was directed at another poster who had suggested that should be the case, not you. I can see that he is the one doing that which is equally unacceptable.

I had a brief look at your previous threads and can quite see why the advice to mediate seems trite! In my DHs situation we are still trying to avoid court but, although unreasonable, DHs ex does not sound quite as unhinged as your pair and her partner is actually quite helpful in calming things down rather than exacerbating things further. However if we don't get anywhere DH will be asking for a more defined order too and it does sound exactly what you need. The advice about when to do that might still apply though. If it's only a few months since the last order you might have to give it a bit longer to show it's not working and you've tried. It doesn't help with half term though. :(

I'd still be trying to offer as many solutions as you can think of and are acceptable to you however and continue to compromise where you can and do the reasonable thing as I think that would help you if it does end up going back to court. It is very hard to do though when you've been sent a list of petty criticisms, strange demands and odd interpretations of a contact order. I also know that sinking feeling when DH tells me there has been another flurry of emails arrive.

Thanks everyone, lots of great advice. I admit I've not one out of my way in recent times to offer plenty of helpful suggestions but I've offered say, one and and left it there. I've just not had the stomach for either of them. I'm going to have to stick this one out. I've made plans for the weekend he is trying to claim as his own. If it ends up back at court in the future then so be it. I'm not afraid of a judge shouting at me like I was last time - if anything I'll be the one with plenty to say this time. I'm not having a man who doesn't know me, speaking to me with contempt and impatience when the only reason I was in that court room was because the law says I cannot ignore a summons.

I've had situations with parents where they've argued about contact dates and both have shown up at the school. We kept the child in the classroom until the court order was checked, before releasing her to the parent whose weekend it actually was. On one occasion, the police were actually called. If he doesn't want flexibility for you, then don't give him any, and stick to the letter of your court order. Give the school and your child's teacher the heads up as well, and they may be able to help you come to an arrangement to keep your DD out of the way if an argument does occur.

The problem with that midnite is that OP's court order states EOW but it doesnt have the dates on it so the OP's ex can use that with the school in exactly the same way he is doing with OP. he can just insist that it i his weekend and checking the order wont prove otherwise- nor will contacting police or any solicitor as the only people who will know where she is to be that weekend is OP and her ex who of course are saying different things.

Thanks everyone. Ive an appt with my solicitor today. He said I won't get a hearing before half term but that if we do ask a judge to hear it afterwards, it won't bode well for ex as taking her is clearly a breach of the order. Hilariously, dd said he's competing in his sport activity next weekend so wouldn't be there anyway. This isn't unusual btw.

nickymanchester - `You are the resident parent, you make the rules and tell him how it is.'

Wrong.

A parent's rights and responsibilities come from parental responsibility, not that parent's status in terms of a court-ordered residence order or even been the primary carer aka `the person who has the child benefit book and the child more than 50% of the time'.

In my work I often deal with poorly-written court orders. In the OP's case contact is `EOW and one midweek overnight plus half holidays.'

Let's look at `EOW'.

It could be:

1.) Collection from school on a Friday and drop off back there on Monday.
2.) Collection from mum's house on a Friday and drop off back there on a Sunday.
3.) Collection from mum's house on a Saturday morning and return on a Sunday afternoon `so she can get them settled for the night before the school week'.

I have seen all these examples argued over. And more.

The moral of this story? Get a tightly-drafted order. Say times explicitly. Say handover locations explicitly. Say dates specifically.

A question to the OP - would I be right in saying that he took you to court for contact? Would he be seeking more contact while you oppose it?

lost dad the 'telling him how it is' comment was mine, nickymanchester agreed with you that I was wrong. I still don't think I am but think possibly the comment is being taken out of context. I was told many times, by CS, solicitor and the Court, that as resident 'parent' I was 'in charge' of day to day arrangements. The ambiguity of the Contact Order (and probably most that are out there) leaves a bitter NRP (and possibly RP's too) trying to bully and make demands of the other parent that they simply have no right to do. By making everything crystal clear with regards to dates, pick up and drop off etc it leaves nothing to argue over. My comments were made in relation to this and the suggestion that OP pinned everything down well in advance and giving no excuse to the other parent to be unclear about the arrangements.

I don't for a second think that my Court awarded PR gives me more 'power' over that of the DC's father but where contact arrangements are concerned then I do take the lead and set out the dates. I have followed the same 'rota' since the date of the Contact Order with holidays following weekend arrangements in order to stop the bullying, harassment and control that the father tried to carry out. I had to be completely inflexible for the first few years because he was so bloody difficult and nasty with constant threats of Court action and endless solicitors letters. I could not allow him to bully me even once because if I did then it would have escalated his demands to be able to do what he wanted when he wanted regardless of the feelings of the children.

I do definitely agree that it would be better if all these arrangements could be made by happy and mutual discussions, sadly, as can be seen by the numerous posts on here, this isn't always possible.

Do we have any family solicitors on this thread who could explain why solicitors don't ensure that these problems are dealt with in advance by insisting on the contact order being clearly written. In the times I have had orders written it has been the solicitors who have written the wording for the Judge, I am sure that it is not only my solicitor and the several Judges dealt with that follow this practise!

I'm not sure that 'day to day arrangements' are the same as contact arrangements to be honest. DHs order for example simply says 'half the summer holidays' and that the exact time is to be 'agreed by mother and father by the end of September'. The reason for not specifying further is it allows some negotiation depending on the needs of the DCs and each parents work commitments. Arguments do happen over it but if it can be done it's better than no flexibility. If it can't then you need a more defined order but that is more restrictive to everyone. If your order specifies exactly which weeks or that you make the decisions on dates then that's fine. Also if your DCs Dad isn't objecting to you giving him a list of dates that's fine too. However, most court orders do still rely on some cooperation between parents.
In ops case that isn't working. Glad your solicitor is on board with the half term issue and this being a breach.

He's got a fairly simple defence if this goes for enforcement - it is down to misinterpretation and whether he's doing that purposefully is kind of irrelevant. The bar for penalties of breaches is really high.

I agree with your solicitor that a judge would not be happy seeing you back in court over this (who would!) but if it's necessary then it's necessary.

Like I say Mary. I was tarted like a petty criminal last time I was dragged to court. Won't be happening again. I feel a lot stronger. Judges have no right to treat parents with such contempt. They are not gods.

Lost dad, yes the lunatic wanted every weekend, yes every weekend from fri-mon because our dd was not being looked after properly and therefore this was the only solution to redress the imbalance in her care. A solicitor happily took money off him to put that in an application. Idiot. He was laughed out for that one not not before he tried to convince the authorities that my dd was unsafe with me. Evil.

No but they do have the final say and going in with that attitude is not a good tactic.

The Family Justice System is a game and you have to know how to play it. It shouldn't be that way but it is.

Most solicitors will advise to put in a higher level of contact that what you want as it will usually come down in negotiation.

Mary my attitude is a result of being 'played' by my ex and a court system that should be there to protect children. The things he committed to paper about his own child are shocking and he was allowed to do it.

I am serious when I say I won't be bullied or browbeaten by the courts again. I spent 12k defending myself against his allegations and then paid 2.5k to a barrister who wrote a court order in 5 minutes that has more holes all over it than ex can exploit.

tiredoutgran `as resident 'parent' I was 'in charge' of day to day arrangements'.

That's not right. Parents with PR have equal status. Simple as that. Parents with PR have a right to be consulted on educational and medical matters. They have to consent to childrens' names being changed if that is sought. A residence order doesn't change that - neither does being the primary carer.

Lost dad day to day arrangements don't necessarily include the matters you're speaking of. My ex tried relentlessly to force me to use the same child carer as his and when I refused, he made my child minders life hell. According to him he had the right to dictate my childcare arrangements. He doesn't.