'unusual' problem regarding house sale?

[soldasseen]

We are buying a new house, the selling of the house is not simple and quiet horrible circumstances.

We have been waiting for the inventory for the new house and got an email from our solicitor today:

"They do not propose to send sellers property information forms and fixtures and fittings form as they say the property is sold as seen as the sellers have no personal knowledge of the property. They propose for the current occupiers to complete the forms however as they are not the sellers these could not be relied upon."

Is this a normal response? what does sold as seen mean? When we last saw it the house was full of furniture and beds etc - does it mean we get all of that?
We are concerned about this because if there is no fixture and fittings list, then what if when we get the keys they have gutted the place? we would have no come back.

Can anyone advise?

Has it been rented out? They sound like they own it but can't give information on what is there (it could have been let through an agency for years or they have inherited a property that has been rented) Maybe geographically they aren't able to visit the property to verify what is being left.

Personally, I am not arsed about many fixtures and fittings and if you are wanting something in particular then you could get your solicitor to ask that all furniture/rubbish is removed from said property and that X, Y and Z are to remain.

I certainly wouldn't want to try to move in if they had left loads of furniture behind unless of course you want that. I am not in the legal profession but have bought a good few houses in my time.

throw it to your solicitor. You can't work like this because you don't know what you are buying.

the owners will have to sort it out, however difficult or painful it is. If they want to sell to you or anyone else.

the worry is that the house is occupied by a family and the grandmother. The house is mostly owned by the son in law of the grandmother. The GMs daughter died before she could divorce the husband ( son in law)

He , from what we can work out and have heard, is selling the house from underneath them all. the GM who is about 80 is being forced from her home of a long number of years because the son in law wants to sell.

From what we know the grandmother ploughed a lot of money into the house, large extension etc. she then signed it over to her daughter who married son in law. she then became terminally ill and tried to divorce husband but died before she could. so he has inherited the house and wants everyone out so he can have the money.

So i guess our worry is that they may take revenge, which i can totally understand - being angry at being forced from their homes, and wreck the place. you can never predict how people may act ( you know like " i paid for the kitchen draws they are coming with me" type thing!)

how do we protect ourselves so that things you would expect, kitchen, bathroom suite, multifuel, sheds, oil fired central heating boiler etc are left in the property and the the condition that we viewing it in?

That is a horrible set of circumstances.

If in the particulars it states that kitchen units, fitted wardrobes and bathroom comprising 3 piece suite these are to be included but I would want further assurance in these circumstances

Either insist on a ff&c form or insist that the property is vacant and clear before exchange.

If it is sold as seen, then it must be in the same state at completion as at exchange. Works with empty probate properties, but only if clear on exchange.

You must inspection immediately before exchange to make sure, and take photos or another independent witness if you are worried.

cantthink, i know it is really horrible, we felt awful when we learnt the facts behind the sale.
I think if i was in those circumstances i would want to make it as hard for the seller as possible! including taking the bathroom suites and kitchen!

Firstly I would be asking for the property to be empty at exchange if there are worries they could gut the place I would also be concerned that they have no intention of leaving. You don't want to be the ones with the expense of the eviction process.
If empty at exchange is not possible I would walk away.

the contract is subject to being vacant on possession, so that would mean that they will have moved out before exchange doesnt it? - i have never bought a house in such circumstances/ problems before

soldasseen, I would stay away from this if I were you, unless you have skin like a rhino hide, are unflappable in a crisis, and it's an unbelievable bargain. The circumstances don't lend themselves to the other side behaving rationally; why pull yourself into this?

And why be complicit in what sounds like terrible behaviour on the part of the vendor, also? There are other properties out there

Buying a house that we really like, in a great area, at a good price is NOT us being " complicit in what sounds like terrible behaviour on the part of the vendor"

it is a stupid and quite frankly nasty thing to say, how dare you accuse us of forcing an 80 yr old lady from her home! - if we didnt buy the house someone else would.

soldasseen, one of the many minefields of this is the meaning of 'vacant on possession' is that I would interpret this as when you have completed, but I'm not a solicitor. Even if it's on exchange, be warned, I only exchanged the day before completion and that was on a relatively straightforward purchase....

You have to have vacant possession or he will be selling it with them living there and you will be the one that has to get them out. Sold as seen means it could be in any condition, they could remove fireplaces or anything and you couldn't prove they had been there before. It does sound dodgy, what does your lawyer say? I would be concerned that you could throw a lot of money at this and the legal wrangling in the family might take forever to resolve, it might all fall through by which time other property will have become more expensive.

Just talk to your lawyer, they will advise you, not just do the conveyancing.

Well, if he can't get a sale, then he can't force an 80 year old grieving lady out of her home! Sorry but I agree, if you purchase it, you will probably have to deal with evicting a poor woman who's just lost her daughter. If that doesn't bother you - and clearly it doesn't as you're proceeding - then don't act offended when someone calls you on it. I wouldn't want to buy a home under those circumstances but some people are more emotional than others when it comes to property purchases.

The contract will state is must be vacant on completion, but in a case such as this, you MUST insist it is vacant on exchange, and check for yourself that it is.

Any decent lawyer will agree.

Oh, and I am a solicitor, and deal with probate sales on a regular basis.

there was a huge amount of interest in this house. If it was not our selves buying it it would have been someone else. the house is in a very desirable area.
the old lady is not freshly bereaved, i am not sure what has taken so long, but she died a while ago. We are sad about the old lady, and did consider letting her live in part of the house ( a part of the house that she currently lives in) but the conditions placed on the house does not allow us to do this.

so do not make us out to be harsh and heartless. if the conditions on the house were different we would gladly allow her to stay.

thank you sittingagain, rosh, mineof, lone and cantthink for your help and suggestions.

it is quiet tricky!

This is EXACTLY what you are paying your solicitor for!! Tell him you are not happy with the situation and explain your concerns and he should come up with some suggestions for a way forward and then he should sort them out legally for you. I have a great solicitor but he honestly never does anything more than the minimum unless you ask him to!

Forgot to add, the situation is terrible, but none of it is your doing or your problem, good luck!

we did actually meet the lady when viewing and she was lovely, held no animosity to us - she realises that WE did not put her in this position, her son in law did! - thank god some people have a a sense of perspective!

thank you Arfur, this is what i was saying to DH. solicitor send us email and then went home, so thought i would try and get some idea on here. He is going to speak to her tomorrow!

The people behind us who rented took the kitchen with them when they moved. Two doors down when they moved out they took the copper piping. Stuff like this does happen.

I suggest you speak to the solicitor and insist on clear on exchange and a fortnight between exchange and completion with an inspection (in case of prawns).

Good luck.

The argument that if you didn't buy it, someone else would, is not a valid justification. You only have to think of purchases that unambiguously involve real suffering where there is a high demand (cocaine, sexual slaves are two extreme examples).

I don't see why you got indignant, tbh. People make ethical decisions all the time over purchases, large and small: Fairtrade or not; gazump or don't gazump; buy a gas-guzzler or cycle; etc. Sometimes the ethics involve the misery of other people's lives, and in this case it does. I don't see any rationale for why you as a purchaser are not making an ethical choice. Certainly if you pull out, you're making it more difficult for the vendor to sell, and the grandma gets to stay in the house a bit longer.

Very nice that the grandma isn't judging. If she had been deeply upset that you could consider buying the property and made that clear to you, would it have changed your mind?

You chose to post about it on Mumsnet, and I chose to comment. If you only want validation of your own perspective, maybe you should stick to asking non-judgmental friends or paid advisors.

OP if the grandmother put money in to the property she may have a beneficial interest under either a constructive or resulting trust. If she does, and is occupying the property, she'll have what's known as an overriding interest, which means you can only buy the property subject to her interest. Speak to your solicitor about this, as I'd want all adults in occupation of the property to sign the contract for sale.