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Original poster

speeding, failure to disclose driver

52 replies

IShallWearMidnight · 02/12/2013 12:31

Hope someone can help - what is likely to happen in this scenario?

Notice of intended prosecution of speeding arrives in the post. Hands up, fair cop. But, driver could have been one of two people (registered owner and spouse). Can't remember which one would have been driving at that particular time. So plead guilty to speeding, but explain driver would have been either A or B (didn't want to pick one as photo evidence may have shown it was the other ifswim).

Police letter to court ignores explanation and says refuses to disclose driver.

Reply to court saying actually that's not what we said to the police, here's a copy of our letter to them where we said it was one or other of us, but not sure which. What is likely to happen in court?

Does the registered owner automatically get the fine/points (which is what we thought would happen) and does it sound like A could be found guilty of failing to disclose driver? Even if it currently looks like they're going to be penalised for telling the truth rather than lying? Surely that can't be right?

OP posts:
Original poster
IShallWearMidnight · 02/12/2013 16:08

point is though that they don't mind which of them gets the fine/points, but more that they genuinely can't say which of them it was, so don't want to be in the position of them saying it was A when it turns out there's a photo proving it was B. So what happens in that case Bradsplit? If A "mans up" and says it was me, and photos show it couldn't possibly have been? Seems like it's less of a problem to not disclose (and get points and a fine), than to pick one of them and risk getting it wrong and then it be custodial). Appreciate you do know your stuff though, so thanks.

AFAIK (and as it's not actually me I haven't seen the paperwork) not being there is actually an option which they've taken, though whether that's just for the speeding, and the failure to disclose will be a separate thing I don't know. I'll find out more at the weekend hopefully when I see them. Gutting that they're just being honest, whereas lying would have been simpler Sad. And yes, not speeding in the first place would have solved all of this, which I've said to them!

OP posts:
Original poster
IShallWearMidnight · 02/12/2013 16:10

missed some posts which I was typing that up - on longer journeys they tend to switch every hour or so, and this particular trip was a long distance over several days with lots of breaks, so I can see how they don't remember which of them was driving on any particular bit of dual carriageway.

OP posts:
plainjanine · 02/12/2013 16:12

They should have recieved the NIP within two weeks of the offense, assuming they haven't recenytly moved, or just bought the car concerned. I can't see the courts being sympathetic to someone claiming to not remember who was driving a particular stretch of raod a max of 14 days earlier.

Someone needs to stand up and take their medicine.

Sorry.

chinhealer · 02/12/2013 16:13

@Nicknacky - totally appreciate your point of view. And, yes, I suppose there is an element of responsibility that comes with car ownership...

But I think there is the world of difference (in almost all cases) between a couple claiming that they can't remember who was driving on a particular stretch of a particular road/motorway at a particular time on a particular date and a couple claiming they can't remember who was driving when they ran a red light and ploughed into some unfortunate pedestrians!

(Although I can foresee a scenario where an accident is caused by whoever was driving at the time but neither person was aware that an accident was caused as it did not directly affect them. In this case, if neither driver nor passenger are aware that anything unusual has happened, they might well not remember who was driving when it happened!)

Nicknacky · 02/12/2013 16:16

It may well be the keeper has been summoned for speeding and failing to disclose, some forces do multi charge.

OddFodd · 02/12/2013 16:16

I'd worry about someone's driving if they can't remember at what points in the journey they switched drivers tbh.

If they knew where they stopped and started each day, where they broke for lunch and they know they swap every hour or so, they should be able to work it out by looking at a map (or perhaps google maps might help?)

Nicknacky · 02/12/2013 16:19

Chin, I appreciate it is a different situation but the basic principle is the same. There isn't any different degrees of it, iyswim.

chinhealer · 02/12/2013 16:23

@IShallWearMidnight - Others who are better informed might correct me, but I'd assume that the speed camera technology used is not advanced enough to identify the driver accurately. Or (more likely) the police really don't have the time or resources to accurately identify who was driving in each case of speeding. Therefore, they ask the speeder to own up, having conclusive evidence that somebody was driving that car at speed.

In other words, if one of the couple just bites the bullet (perhaps the one with the fewer points on their licence in the first place or the one for whom points on licence are not too important in terms of work etc) then the police are not going to suddenly say: "Aha! We were just waiting for you to falsely take the points when we knew it was the other person all along!"

Nicknacky · 02/12/2013 16:27

Chin you are correct. And the purpose of any available photos is to identify the vehicle, not the driver.

And it is not an offence to incorrectly name a driver if the person believed that belief to be correct.

chinhealer · 02/12/2013 16:32

@Nicknacky - Heehee... of course, if the couple in this type of situation are excessively pedantic sticklers for the truth, then their consciences might not allow them to "believe" that belief for the sake of expediency! But, y'know, assuming that they're not worrying about Judgement Day and/or the karmic repercussions of their "believing" something that they don't really believe... the solution seems to be a simple one!

Original poster
IShallWearMidnight · 02/12/2013 16:36

oh OK, that helps - B is very worried that photos could be produced with a flourish proving they were lying and it would all get much worse. And AFAIK there's been no reply from the police when asked if there were photos (if you could see the head of the driver, they'd be able to tell). So presumably that means there aren't any photos, or at least not useable ones, in which case they are possibly worrying about nothing having watched too many TV dramas I think.

So next question, having already sent the forms off and a letter saying that they don't know which of them it was, how easy is it to change to saying "it was me"? Do they just write again "on further reflection", and is that likely to be accepted, or will the court/police just get pissed off and say no, you're lying? also possibly having watched too many TV dramas Blush.

OP posts:
Bradsplit · 02/12/2013 16:38

Photos are rarely easy to identify. I've inly seen a few where you can see the person

Bradsplit · 02/12/2013 16:39

Just say on reflection it's me. Really. This case is best done that way

chinhealer · 02/12/2013 16:41

@IShallWearMidnight - sheesh! Being sincere and honest naïve to a tee can tangle you up good and proper, legally!

I think the court would be happy not to have to devote/waste any more time than absolutely necessary on a case like this, so the "on further reflection" letter would probably be a good idea. But perhaps they ought to run it past a solicitor first?

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime · 02/12/2013 16:43

if they are paying that little attention, neither of them should be driving. you are supposed to pay attention and concentrate whilst in control of a car.

I favour them both going on a speed awareness course.

chinhealer · 02/12/2013 16:46

I have a feeling the spectre of the Chris Huhne case is haunting the couple in question. But, apart from anything else, that was a clear case of perverting the course of justice and of revenge being a dish best served cold from a disgruntled ex- !

OddFodd · 02/12/2013 16:47

Do you know how many points they both have? If neither of them have any points, I shouldn't think the police would investigate further if they say 'on further reflection and studying the man, I, A, was the driver'

If one of them has 9 points and the other one fesses up, they might quiz them a little harder.

eurochick · 02/12/2013 16:49

Who said they were not paying attention? They just don't recall where they switched drivers on a particular journey.

Bradsplit · 02/12/2013 16:49

yes think the person who suggested they werent aware needs to sit in a days court of speeding fines

OddFodd · 02/12/2013 16:53

I find it really odd that you don't know where you switched drivers. You should be able to work it out anyway if you know where the speeding offence occurred and you know how frequently you swapped over.

No, I've never sat in court listening to speeding fines because umm I don't have any points on my licence because I pay attention when I'm driving :o

Original poster
IShallWearMidnight · 02/12/2013 16:56

neither have any points, and makes no difference which of them gets the points, so I'll suggest they stop being so honest, which isn't going to go down well, B gets quite caught up in how things ought to be rather than being pragmatic about life.

Didn't know you could do speed awareness courses without being officially offered them - when DH did one, he needed a code to get into the website to book it.

OP posts:
YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime · 02/12/2013 16:58

surely you pay attention to your surroundings when driving?

motorway junctions
village names
A/B road numbers
roundabouts
major /minor junctions

I mean you don't just sit behind the wheel with your foot on the gas?

frogwatcher42 · 02/12/2013 17:06

We swop drivers all the time - I couldn't tell you who is driving when from last week, let alone weeks ago!!!! We go on a trip to the supermarket and stop for fuel, probably swop drivers there, swop driver at the supermarket and probably at the next shop. It is so random for us who drives - usually one of us just walks to the drivers door so other gets in passenger door.

I totally get why they wouldn't know. We wouldn't.

But it would be easier just to say 'oh it was me' and if they produce a photo with a flourish and it wasn't you say it was a genuine mistake and you were sure you were driving at that point.

Surely if both partners are confident drivers who like driving, and one doesn't dominate the driving (i.e. they share it all the time), it would be quite normal to not remember who drove exactly where at any time - in fact I think it would be weird to remember. I would imagine if you are in a partnership where normally one person drives more often and you only swop on very long journeys or if drinking then you would remember. But that often isnt the case.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime · 02/12/2013 17:18

We go on a trip to the supermarket and stop for fuel, probably swop drivers there, swop driver at the supermarket and probably at the next shop

but you would remember who was driving when you left the house?
you could find who paid for the fuel?
you could find who paid for the shop?
you would surely remember who was driving when arrived home?
surely you could work it out of you wanted to?

Surely if both partners are confident drivers who like driving, and one doesn't dominate the driving (i.e. they share it all the time), it would be quite normal to not remember who drove exactly where at any time - in fact I think it would be weird to remember.

gosh I don't find that sort of thing difficult to remember at all and am struggling to understand confident drivers would have poor memories.

TBH I think it is a convenient excuse to try to avoid responsibility.

OddFodd · 02/12/2013 17:33

Do you both carry the car keys with you then frog? So it's a race to see who gets behind the driver's seat first?

I don't know drivers who both need exactly the same driving position - every person I've ever shared driving with needs to adjust seat rake, steering wheel, mirrors etc so it's more of a pain than not.

I'm quite short though!