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Original poster

speeding, failure to disclose driver

52 replies

IShallWearMidnight · 02/12/2013 12:31

Hope someone can help - what is likely to happen in this scenario?

Notice of intended prosecution of speeding arrives in the post. Hands up, fair cop. But, driver could have been one of two people (registered owner and spouse). Can't remember which one would have been driving at that particular time. So plead guilty to speeding, but explain driver would have been either A or B (didn't want to pick one as photo evidence may have shown it was the other ifswim).

Police letter to court ignores explanation and says refuses to disclose driver.

Reply to court saying actually that's not what we said to the police, here's a copy of our letter to them where we said it was one or other of us, but not sure which. What is likely to happen in court?

Does the registered owner automatically get the fine/points (which is what we thought would happen) and does it sound like A could be found guilty of failing to disclose driver? Even if it currently looks like they're going to be penalised for telling the truth rather than lying? Surely that can't be right?

OP posts:
Original poster
IShallWearMidnight · 02/12/2013 12:32

oh, and it was 51 in a temporary 40 limit on a dual carriageway, so presumably eligible for a speed awareness course rather than court? Or is that not a national option?

OP posts:
PeterParkerSays · 02/12/2013 12:33

How come you don't know who was driving? Surely even if you swapped drivers on a long journey, you'd still know the times you swapped between drivers A and B?

Original poster
IShallWearMidnight · 02/12/2013 12:37

wasn't me, was a relative, part of a much longer journey and happened about six weeks ago. They genuinely can't remember which one it was on that particular bit of road, totally accept it happened, but could have been either of them. Thought they were doing the right thing by being honest about it, what with the MP and his wife hooha.

OP posts:
Nicknacky · 02/12/2013 12:57

What efforts did they make to identify the driver? And they are unable to admit to speeding if they fail to identify they driver.

But yes, the registered keeper has so far failed to identify.

lougle · 02/12/2013 13:02

Can't they ask for a copy of the photo?

igivein · 02/12/2013 13:05

Why don't they ask for a copy of the photo so they can identify which one of them it was?

igivein · 02/12/2013 13:05

Sorry lougle beat me to it!

Original poster
IShallWearMidnight · 02/12/2013 13:08

which "they" - A and B or the police? A+B are saying it was one of them, but they genuinely don't know which, and don't want to pick one in case there is photo evidence showing it's the other (which would be a more serious offence). They contacted the police by email and post asking if there was a photo, but didn't get a response (have supplied copies of both to the court). They're happy for A (registered keeper) to get the fine/points, but aren't prepared to lie and say it was A in case it wasn't.

So from a purely legal point of view, they've failed to declare? Bugger, that's a £1000 fine isn't it? Might they have enough mitigating evidence that they've tried to identify, so it's not their fault?

They're happy to accept that the car was speeding, and that it could have been either of them, so were prepared that the registered keeper would get the fine and points as a default. Does that not happen?

OP posts:
Sidge · 02/12/2013 13:09

They need to ask for the photo to identify the driver.

Speed awareness courses seem to be county-dependent. At the discretion of the county awarding the penalty.

Nicknacky · 02/12/2013 13:30

It doesn't work like that, it doesn't default to the registered keeper to accept the speeding charge. The police don't have to send the pictures but most will do to assist in identifying.

What other steps did they take to identify? If they can show at court they used all due diligence in attempting to identify the driver then a not guilty can be possible.

The registered keeper is the one who would be charged with failing to identify unless he can show he was not the keeper at the time of the offence, but it doesn't sound like that applies in this case.

GemmaTeller · 02/12/2013 13:40

We had this, we got a fine for 36 in a 30 mile zone in my car, it was either DH or I driving (we were viewing house in a different, unfamilar county)

I sent the paperwork back and asked for a photo, photo came back - back view of car, cant see who was driving.
Wrote back saying, sorry, we don't know who was driving, it was either me (gave details) or DH (gave details), please put the points on my licence.
DVLA/police said no, we need to know who was driving, I again wrote and explained the above.

I was sent a court date, attended court, pleaded guilty, explained the above - I got 6 points and a £400 fine

Original poster
IShallWearMidnight · 02/12/2013 14:55

thanks all, that's been helpful. What seems less helpful is that the system seems to want you to not be honest, or require you to keep detailed records of changes of drivers over a journey, or not swap over in case you can't remember six weeks later if you changed drivers at 3.40 or 4.10.

Fingers crossed the court accepts they've done their best to identify who was driving, and isn't too harsh. Annoyingly they can't be there in person (well they could, but it's a 400 mile drive each way, and an overnight stay), so hopefully what they've written down and included as evidence will be enough.

OP posts:
Nicknacky · 02/12/2013 15:32

How soon after the date of offence did they receive the request? Unless they have moved, bought a new car etc then the request should reach them in 14 days.

If they are pleading not guilty and proceeding to trial then they will need to be there.

TodgerDodger · 02/12/2013 15:41

OP, you say that the system seems to require that everyone keeps detailed notes of who was driving and when.

It doesn't - it requires people not to stick to the speed limit.

Anyway, if it were me, I would take all the info to courtas evidence that I had taken steps to identify the driver, but couldn't.

TodgerDodger · 02/12/2013 15:43

to stick to the speed limit, rather than not to

I'll never be a proofreader.

Bradsplit · 02/12/2013 15:44

NO REG OWNer doesnt get fine

You cant say " well it must be me but I dont think I am guilty"

It will go to trial - if oyu lost oyu have a HUGE cost bill

My advice is to just take them

Bradsplit · 02/12/2013 15:45

they will call you to trial I BET YOU

no way they will accept a written one unles sit names the driver

the fine for it is way more

ONE of them needs ot man up and take it

Bradsplit · 02/12/2013 15:47

If you arent sure which ( as someone else said) they will definitely call you to trial for failure to disclose.

THere is some kind of precedent based on the -frigigng-- Hamiltons and tbh its a PITA

BitOutOfPractice · 02/12/2013 15:47

Because the police will assume that they are trying to dodge the fine / points. Which, to be fair, I would assume too. It does seem a bit flaky to not to be able to remember that

chinhealer · 02/12/2013 15:47

@GemmaTeller - have to say that's a shocking (if, in the grand scheme of things, minor) injustice and an example of the law being unconcerned with the truth or equity! On what basis were YOU awarded the points as opposed to DH?! Surely the equitable thing would have been for each of you to have been given 3 points?

I suppose the problem is that if "we don't know who was driving at the time" is accepted as a defence in these cases, everybody in every case of speeding would use it and nobody could be legitimately prosecuted!

The moral of the story is: always let him/her drive (according to preference, experience, driving ability etc!)

Bradsplit · 02/12/2013 15:51

you say you dont know who it was

they then charge you with failure to disclose the identity
you say you cant
they set a trial
You slog all the way up there. there is a trial about how much effort you made to work it out, people you asked, where you stopped etc

Its all a bit embarassing and its hard to prove

if you lose you pay loads more

Nicknacky · 02/12/2013 15:55

I think it's fair enough chinhealer although I can appreciate Gemma may think its harsh!

As a car owner/registered keeper you have some responsibilities that come along with that. Being able to identify the driver at a given time is one of those unless you are able to demonstrate that you are unable to do so.

If your vehicle was involved in an accident would you be happy if they keeper just said "dunno who it was?"

Gemma was found guilty of failing to identify the driver where the penalty is 6 points. You can't split them between the possible drivers.

lougle · 02/12/2013 16:00

They're just going to have to try and remember. I can't see how they can forget, to be honest. Think of the journey, where they were going, why...they should recall what happened. Especially assuming that switching driver isn't that commonplace.

For instance, I remember that I swapped driving with my Dad at Penrith on a trip to Scotland about 4 years ago.

I remember that on the way back from a wedding some 8-9 years ago, DH took over driving because I felt so tired that I felt unsafe, and we swapped at junction 12 of the M27.

I can't imagine that they both can't recall at all. If they can't, I'd wonder if they were paying due care and attention at the time, tbh.

Bradsplit · 02/12/2013 16:05

Or they are pragmatic and one of them just takes the points fgs.

Poloholo · 02/12/2013 16:08

A friend of mine and his GF tried they "oh we can't remember" line and took it to court. Court was having none of it and gave her points and a fine - as a new driver with a previous speeding offence she was banned. Can't say as I was particularly sympathetic.

Because let's face it, otherwise a great number of people wouldn't be able to rember.

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