Boundary Dispute - Very Upset Elderly Couple

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

My DM and DF (mid seventies) live on a pleasant eighties-build housing estate with open-plan fronts i.e. no fences. They've lived there since new and have had various neighbours in that time - no problem. They are passionate about their beautiful garden and tend it daily, including a narrow strip of ground, about 60' long by 10' wide that divides the two front driveways. The last five years or so, the latest neighbours on one side (a much younger couple) have been claiming that this ground is half theirs My parents disagree and, looking at the plans attached to their title deeds, have a point.

Despite various interventions, the problem rumbles on unresolved. The neighbour refuses to accept the title deeds as being definitive and has been claiming his turf quite aggressively, digging up plants, spraying weedkiller on others, throwing any temporary border markers out. My DM, not bothered by a bit of confrontation, has been holding her own so far, possibly aggravating the situation as a result. It finally came to a head when the neighbour smashed some decorative pots outside DM's front door, the police were called and now DM and DF are being asked to go to mediation with the neighbour.

Both are very upset. My DM loves her home of 30 years but is now saying she wants to move house. My DF (a Parkinsons sufferer and registered disabled) is so anxious he doesn't want to sit out in the garden in case he sees the neighbour. They 'don't want to bother me' with their problems but I am.

Thank you for reading so far and does anyone have experience of this? The open-plan aspect means a fence can't be erected even if everyone agreed where it would go. The title deeds plan is good but doesn't include specific measurements that might settle the argument once and for all. Is mediation the best way forward when it's two pensioners up against an aggressive younger couple - or is it too unequal? Should I be telling them to get a solicitor and leave it to them? Thanks

I think that mediation sounds like a sensible way forward.
I believe that you can request for your parents to meet with the mediator at a different time to the neighbours, at least for the first meeting.
Personally I wouldn't go down the solicitors route until all other avenues are exhausted - both to save money and also because it would be bound to inflame the situation further.
The neighbours don't sound the sort to give up quietly.

That's a very good idea about seeing the mediators separately. I'll suggest that thanks. Yes, I'm reluctant to tell them to go to a solicitor mostly because I don't think that the kind of definitive map required actually exists and the solicitor will end up suggesting mediation. Plus there's also the problem of winning the argument but ending up even more isolated and ostracised. It's not only the neighbours that won't give up quietly. My DM is pretty determined, even though she's upset about it.

I agree that mediation is a good suggestion but also your parents need to be clear what they want to get out of the mediation. Do they want it agreed that they own the land, do they want compensation for the smashed pots, are they prepared to put up a boundary fence even if low level if required or are they just going to concede on this.

My parents had something similar with a new neighbour and open gardens when the new neighbour first moved in a couple of years ago. It was decided that the neighbour would put up and maintain a boundary and if they didn't then then it would revert to my parents. Guess what happened.

On one hand, I agree that mediation may well be the "calmer" way of solving the problem, but, on the other hand, if the disputed strip of land is shown on your parents' title deeds then it is theirs surely?

Maybe a simple letter from your parents' solicitor with a photocopy of the relevant part of the title deeds attached, showing exactly what's what would be the quickest solution?

Is there any chance the neighbours could possibly be right? Is the land even owned by anyone or was it always intended to be communal? I'm only asking as this is clearly causing your parents a lot of upset and stress and if they are to continue fighting this battle (either via mediation or legally), they need to be certain that the law is in their favour. Otherwise, all the hassle and stress will be wasted as they could lose some of the land anyway IYSWIM.

Whatever the rights and wrongs though, what horrible bullies the neighbours are! Good luck with it.

Ah, x-posts. I see that no definitive map seems to exist. What a shame. Do the builders/planners of these houses not foresee this kind of problem I wonder?

I think the ownership or compensation isn't the issue so much as wanting a low-level 'marker' that shows where the dividing line actually goes so that everyone can keep to their side of it. They tried to put one in unilaterally in the recent past but it only made the neighbour angry. He dug it out and threw it back at them. My DM feels that she is being bullied into giving up more than she should.

Why go to mediation when if it's an 80s estarte the plan will be well drawn up? There may have been a larger scale plan for the whole estate, and that might be with your parents' deeds. The plan will be absolutely determinative. Perhaps they should both jointly pay for a surveyor to mark out, by reference to the plan in the deeds, where the boundary lies? With the capital tied up in their home it's unlikely they'd get legal aid, and mediation isn't free.

"Do the builders/planners of these houses not foresee this kind of problem I wonder? "

I don't think they do, no. DM has asked the original builders for a more detailed map but had the request turned down. She also asked a surveyor to give their opinion based on the map she holds with the title deeds and his answer (£150 later) was 'best resolved amicably through mediation'.

Are the neighbours right?... Well... of the 60' x 10' strip the plan, and indeed the line of the house and other fences, would say they can claim maybe a 3' wide border to their driveway and my parents would have the remainder. Previous neighbours have organised things like that and mostly are quite happy for DM to act as communal gardener as it saves them a job! The current neighbour is claiming a much bigger section... and has been pulling out DM's much-loved plants in order to stake that claim.

If it's clearly in the deeds where the boundaries lie,can a solicitor help? Surely neighbour is trespassing, crim damage etc.
How awful for them to have to have this, even if your parents were wrong and half is his, there is no excuse for that behaviour.

From my current experience where we are reclaiming land shown to be ours on our title deed, but that has been 'stolen' by an adjoining landowner who erected a fence around part of our land, I believe the title deed should be sufficient. It is true that they don't include specific measurements, but there should be a scale mentioned, as in architects' drawings, so that you can measure the area on the deed with a ruler and use the scale to convert and work out the actual area. We have done this and found our deed to be precisely accurate. As we have a copy of the deed that we initialled when we bought the house, that seems like pretty legally binding proof that the land is ours.

Thanks Tannhauser. It is appalling behaviour trying to frighten a couple of pensioners, you're right. It's that word 'clearly' that's at the heart of this. The deeds show quite a lot of detail but, frustratingly, not quite detailed enough to be able to get out a tape-measure and draw a precise line which would prove Mr Pot Smasher right or wrong. A 'reasonable man' would look at the plans and agree with my Mum, and I'm just hoping the mediators are that reasonable man.

The problem with mediation is that it will only work if both parties are willing to reach a compromise - which realistically may mean your parents giving up part of what they believe to be their land. If your parents aren't prepared to do that, the best way forward for them will probably be to contact a solicitor. The neighbours may well lose heart if a solicitors' letter lands on their doormat with a copy of the plan and asserting that they are trespassing on your parents' property. Unfortunately it sounds as though this won't be resolved quickly or painlessly unless your parents are willing to give ground.

One question that may be helpful for your parents to ask the mediator to put to the neighbours is even if the land is partially theirs, what would they do with it? They probably couldn't or shouldn't park on it. It will never be built on so there is no adverse possession issue, it wouldn't realistically add to or diminish the value of the property and the neighbours probably would have the burden of maintaining it in a way consistent with the surroundings in any event.

Maybe try to steer your parents away from getting too hung up on the issue of who owns it. If it is not clear from the plans whose property it is, it would seriously not be worth the money to go to the expense of having a judicial determination of the issue. Instead, try to work the line that determining actual ownership is less important than the amenity of having the land well maintained and attractive. Your parents may in fact be doing their neighbours a favour by saving them the time and money of maintaining it. As it gives your parents pleasure to do so, it really is a win-win situation.

of the 60' x 10' strip the plan, and indeed the line of the house and other fences, would say they can claim maybe a 3' wide border to their driveway and my parents would have the remainder.

That sounds perfectly reasonable then. I wonder why the neighbours are so convinced they are entitled to more? Maybe that's something you'll never know though. I would expect the boundaries to run along the line of the house and other fences too, but (apologies for repeating myself here) what a shame the planners didn't have the foresight to show the boundaries on the deeds properly!

Even if the boundary plan is not sufficiently clear to demonstrate ownership by your parents, given their continuous occupation of the land for a period of 30 years, they may well have acquired a right of ownership by prescription - what gets called "squatters rights". their occupation has been the tending, gardening, planting and free access to the land. Given the open plan nature of the plot this argument may have some valid opposition but it's definitely one I'd look into.

I think I've persuaded DM to give a little ground - literally in this case. She's OK with them having a narrow border to their driveway as long as they stick to it. In return she'd like the boundary marked so that there is no more dispute. If they can agree that at mediation, does it become legally binding? If the neighbour doesn't put down the boundary marker or ignores it, for example, would she have recourse in law?

@Thistledew... those are exactly the kind of things I've been saying to my parents. The ground can't be built on or parked on. It's a a very long flowerbed with lots of manholes set into it that DM has cleverly disguised with the planting. She makes it look lovely. All her other neighbours of the last 30 years have encouraged her to do this!! :) But this new guy is in for a land grab and I really don't understand his motives beyond wanting to bully an old lady.

Do you mean 60' x 10' or 60" x 10"?
Because if you mean 10inches rather than feet the problem will lie with the fact that title deeds are often at a scale of 1:1250 which means a narrow strip of land is the thickness of a pen line.
If you look at the land registry website there is a whole section about legal boundaries and there definition and legal entity, which explains the situation that your parents are likely to be in. Mediation is generally the best way of coming to an agreement in these cases.

Feet... not inches. Parents' driveway is about 60 feet long, curving in a little at the end. The neighbours' driveway is parallel most of the way but a lot shorter because the road they live on curves in at that point. The distance between the two driveways is about 10 feet.

I hope your mum is ok.
A quick not on mediation. A mediator is not a judge and does not make a decision, they simply facilitate a conversation and suggest ways of communicating which should help the parties to resolve their conflict. Any decision which is made would be made by your parents and their neighbour jointly, which means that they are usually followed through with. The mediation would probably help you to understand what his motives are which should help to find a solution which satisfies whatever he wants and what your parents want. As has already been said, your parents should probably think a little before the mediation about what it is that they want from it.
Good luck with resolving this.

So the neighbour could theoretically agree to anything but not subsequently abide by it? Are there minutes taken of these conversations? A recording?

If your parents want any agreement reached at mediation to be binding they will need it to be recorded in a written open agreement signed by both parties. The mediator might be able to assist with drawing that up if they have a legal background - a mediation itself is usually confidential and without prejudice to either party's position, meaning that statements made in it can't be relied upon by either party.

The key is to make sure that any agreement entered into is recorded in terms which are as clear as possible and set out exactly how the boundary is to be defined - they can do it themselves or employ a solicitor, although obviously that will have a cost implication. Your parents should also bear in mind that if they ever sell their house the new boundary will need to be reflected in the deeds upon completion.

God their neighbour sounds like a complete fuckwit!!
I empathise with your parents we had similar problems with similar fuckwit neighbours .

If your parents have treated it as their own for the last 25+ years and no-one has challenged them before haven't they gained a right to own it (even though it sounds like they do anyway) There is a name for it.. right on the tip of my tongue!

basically I thought it you used a piece of land uninterrupted for 12 years it became yours.

adverse possession