Is this legal?

[unexpectedcircumstance]

I never actually thought I would end up doing this but here goes.

A DF of mine has had a miscarriage recently at 9 weeks. The hospital told her that she could have the baby cremated there but that it would be done with a batch of other babies so she and her DP would not have any ashes or anything.

She's opted to arrange for something private but is unable to afford a burial or a cremation and asked me if I knew whether or not its legal for her to burn the remains herself so that she can scatter the ashes. I didn't answer her at the time but shes in bits and pieces and doesn't seem to know what to do. As her friend, I don't particularly want to see her arrested either.

Anyone have any ideas on this?

Awful question but has to be asked - have the hospital actually kept her remains? At 9 weeks I don't think they would have? If she has the remains then I can't see that there is anything stopping her from doing whatever she wants with them? (speaking as someone who had 2 mcs at between 6-9 weeks, both of which ended up down the toilet )

Just on a practical note, how will she burn the remains to make ashes? I thought you had to have an oven of a zillion degrees to achieve this? I could be wrong, but you or she need to consider whether it is actually feasible for her to produce ashes in this way (given that it is obviously important to her to have the ashes to scatter or to keep).

The hospital should be able to tell her whether they can release the remains to her directly for her to deal with personally - I would just ask them.

I am pretty sure that this is illegal - there are very strict rules regarding dead bodies.

Also the temperature of incinerators are ridiculously high and you would not be able to replicated this at home.

Yes she has the remains in a little box (she was weeping over them yesterday.)

Her and her DP plan to place the remains within an incinerator they bought and have a small funeral in their garden with just the two of them. I'm then going with them to scatter the ashes somewhere lovely if their DIY cremation is legal.

I had a miscarriage at ten weeks and it was incredibly tiny, placenta the size of half an egg White and the baby was the size of a peanut. You could easily wrap it in a tissue and burn it in the oven.

I just wrapped it in a tissue and buried it in the park.

This is another awful point, but even if everything were kept, at 9 weeks it's still only about 3cms big. The reason there will be no ash is because the poor thing just isn't big enough, nor bones calcified enough, to produce any. Staff may not have wanted to point this out at the time.

As neither the birth or death are legally recognised, I suspect it would be legal for your friend to do whatever she wishes.

It's not a 'body' and the rules won't apply. It's an embryo, tinier than an poached egg.

The rules about "disposing" of fetuses are not the same as those of disposing of a dead body. As far as I know it's up to her what she wants to do with them. What she is planning sounds lovely

TheArmadillo I imagine there would be legal issues surrounding the disposal of say a baby over 20 weeks as far as research has shown me as you require documents.

But surely its different for a 9week fetus? its mostly blood and tissue, the actual fetus itself would be barely grape sized.

i dont know what the 'rules' are but my friend miscarried at 15wks, the baby was tiny obviously, but fully formed, she took the baby home and they buried it themselves in their garden and planted a small tree at its grave.

so i think she is within her rights to ask for the fetus and to do what she wants with it? in that i know others who have done the same. once further on in pregnancy i think you are then subject to various laws re burying or cremation.

There are very strict rules regarding the disposal of human remains, even of fetuses.

Human Tissue Authority

yes - but don't think the human tissue act applies here as it is concerned with the retention and use of human materials by organisations??

A baby has no legal rights until it is born. It does not technically count as a person (sorry) :(

The only laws regarding this related to selling the property where you are supposed to declare any people buried on the plot (but honestly it wouldn't be necessary in this case).

Technically you need a licence to cremate. But no-one would bother in these circumstances.

DonInKillerHeels: I looked at that link, and couldn't work out which part could apply in these circumstances. Could you say where on the site it covers remains after a miscarriage?

i am not sure my friend was even asked what she was going to do with the remains, she basically birthed her 15wk old fetus at home (it was all very quick) and then went to hospital to be checked over, they took the remains with them, the hospital basically wanted to check that it had all come out and as the baby was completely formed it was obvious it had, once they checked her over she was allowed home and she just took the remains with her.

tbh i havent questioned her about it, obviously! i know it was a very difficult time for her and they simply did what they thought was best, i have no idea if the hospital questioned their motives/intentions as to what they would do with the remains, or if they simply let her go. and i know that she did what was best for her, which was to bury the baby and give him (you could see the sex) a name. :(

SANDS guidelines are:

Burial outside a cemetery
SANDS guidelines say there is no legal prohibition to parents taking fetal remains home to bury themselves, provided certain requirements are met. These are:
✦ it must not cause any danger to others ✦ it must not interfere with any rights other people
may have on the land
✦ there must be no danger to water supplies or watercourses
✦ there must be no chance of bodily fluids leaking into or onto adjoining land
✦ the fetal tissue must be buried at a depth of at least 18 inches (45cm)

link to previously referred to doc

As others have said I really don't feel that any ashes as such would be produced. Could one of you call as though looking to arrange and ask tge question I'm thinking the lack of ashes might be distressing iyswim and burying might be a better option.

Copied from the HTA site

Cremation

113. Although not covered by The Cremation (England and Wales) Regulations 2008 [www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/uksi_20082841_en_1] fetal tissue may be cremated, providing there has been consultation with the woman or couple where appropriate. Some crematoria are willing to provide a service to dispose of fetal tissue, but this is at their discretion. Establishments wishing to cremate fetal tissue will need to negotiate with the local crematoria to establish what level of service may be provided. If this service is not available locally, they might consider negotiating with other service providers further afield. Communal cremation for fetal tissue may be permitted by some crematoria.

114. Women or couples should be told that the cremation of fetal tissue does not often produce any ashes for them to scatter.

Incineration

115. Fetal tissue from a pregnancy lost before 24 weeks may be incinerated, although how appropriate this is depends on the individual circumstances. Further guidance on incineration is available in the Royal College of Nursing guidance document on Sensitive disposal of all fetal remains

...So in theory she should be fine to do it herself as the fetal tissue would be incinerated.

Also in referral to the ashes (and lack of) she said to me that they would be mixing some wooden things with it, so even if its mostly ashes from the wood, it is at least going to have a tiny percentage of the baby in it (in her view.)

Being really really brutal here - but if it's OK to flush a 9 week old fetus down the toilet then it's ok to burn it. Though of course I think you wouldn't want to say that to your friend.

I personally think a home cremation might be quite difficult and would be emotionally very hard, I would prefer a simple burial of the remains.

What a terrible, terrible situation for your friend to be in.

I know some crematoriums do offer a free service of cremation for neonates. Might be worth asking - at the end of the day when the ovens are still on (sorry) they sometimes will pop an extra one through.

A home cremation would have to be very well organised. Putting wood in is fine but if she's going to do that would not a friend with a wood burning stove be a better and safer option?

It is a sad situation, but they are blessed with a lovely DC already who thankfully is too young to know whats going on.

Burial isn't an option for her either as she and her DP plan to move in the future and the area they live in isn't very nice.

You can achieve very high temperatures (suitable for rendering not calcified bones to ash) by using petrochemical firelighters.

Also they have an incinerator at home so I imagine that would be as effective as a wood burner as it depends what you put in to burn that determines the temperature (to an extent.)

Another point, I've seen medium sized bonfires that have melted beer bottles in my time (long ago mind you.) So I think burning tissue with wood should be alright?