Legal helps here please :)

[SK1ER]

Until my son's father, if he does, gets Parental Responsibilities given to him by court, or even after, can I as the mum, the parent with care (and at the moment the only person with parental responsibility) make a formal parental responsibility agreement with another person?

My ex (after son's father) was my son's common-law step-father and still remains so in my and my son's eyes.

We (me, my son and my mum) would like it if I make a formal parental responsibility agreement with him as it will give my son added security in the very likely event of his natural father abusing the court system once he has PR, as a legitimised whipping stick against me.

So, Question A: Can I make that formal agreement now and without my son's fathers permission?

B: As my son's father has made an application to the court but a hearing has not yet been held, although one is arranged, can the fact that proceedings have started in a way prevent me from doing so?

refer to page 6 here...

www.childrenslegalcentre.com/Resources/CLC/Documents/PDF%20N-Z/Parental%20Responsibility%20leaflet.pdf

It is very hard for anyone who is not a parent to be given PR. And if there is an ongoing case then I doubt you could squeeze it through (eg have your child adopted by your ex ) before that happened.

Why do you want an ex to be given PR over the child's own father? I am guessing that as it is going to court you are contesting his PR request. On what grounds?

Hi gillybean2 :)

We, that is me, my son and my mum want my son to feel he has support.

My son's dad has shown no responsibility and has only made the application as a response to me finally (after 14 years of having to fight for every penny of child support) contacting the CSA.

Even my son doesn't want his dad to have PR for the same reasons we all have, that his dad will use it to cause trouble rather than use it for positive reasons.

I'm not suggesting adoption, just me giving his step-dad PR

See gillybean's leaflet: A step-parent may make an agreement to obtain parental responsibility for his or her step-child providing all those
with parental responsibility agree.

You can get PR for a step parent, but if the natural father doesn't agree, you will have to apply to the court.

I don't think a step dad having PR will have any practical impact on the natural father being an arse or not. PR is about recognising status, it is not about giving a person power or a stick to beat you with.

Basically it should just give the non resident parent the right to be consulted about the big issues - schooling, hospitals, religion etc. It does not give him the right to dictate to you over the day to day running of your household etc.

If your child has a step dad who loves him and is there for him, that is far more important than getting an order for PR. Imo.

The reality is though that the person you want to give PR to is an ex and is no longer a step parent or living with you as a couple.

I think you would find it hard to have PR awareded to him, especially given your ds's own father is now persuing PR (for whatever reasons).
Also why would you choose him rather than your mother of this was about stability for your child? You have split with this man if I read your OP correctly...

It doesn't have to be a court award my son's step-dad does it? I thought I could, with the relevant form then being witnessed.

Mum is 74 and doesn't feel strong enough to go into the arena of court.

I would feel less likely to contest my son's father being awarded PR by the court if my son knew there was someone else fighting in his corner.

His dad applies years ago and the court refused him, finding in my favour. Although he has had many years to appeal or make a fresh application he hasn't done.

His application was made within a week of the CSA forcing him to pay child support.

It isn't about PR for him, it's about scoring points, he's had an imaginary war with me running in his head for years, I'm seriosuly beginning to wonder if there isn't perhaps some slight mental health problem, he really sees a conflict in the most ridiculous of places and sees attack in the most innocent of situations.

SK1ER - I have seen your other thread and posted on it too.
I don't think you have said why your ds's father was denied PR. It may be relevant..?

The court process has changed and things moved forward. It is now considered better for both parents to be involved when before it was thought better that one parent be totally responsible. Even unmarried parents are automatically given PR if they are named on a birth certificate now, and can get it relatively easily if not. Unless there are good reasons why PR should be denied he could well be given PR this time. Don't assume he won't be or that he has lied by omitting the previous court case in order to achieve it.
He must know you would bring it up if he lied about it and be able to prove it. He has perhaps forgotten or not believed it to be relevant for some reason... Why?

And while you may be right that there is possibly a link between your CSA application and his PR request it may not simply be tit for tat. It may well be that he is thinking, well if I'm going to pay for my child then I sure as heck and going to be involved and get that PR now.

Going through the court process isn't easy and it isn't cheap. Kess dedictaed parents may well give up when they realise the time frame and cost involved.

Bear in mind that if he has a job then he is unlikely to get legal aid. If he doesn't have a job then how come he is having to pay more via the CSA which has triggered this (as you feel)? Also if he is on legal aid he'd be required to attempt mediation and you say he hasn't suggested it. SOmething that leads me to think maybe he isn't legal aid funded. Are you sure he has legal aid and isn't funding this decision himself?

People do and can change. They can grow up and it can take something like you persuing him via the CSA for him to sit up and say 'you know what, I am a dad and I'm going to be a dad before it's too late'. Especially when his son is saying I want to know my dad and see him.

I don't deny that there is also a possibility that he is simply doing this to
get at you. But court and CAFCASS are well used to seeing this and hopefully would spot it if it is really his main reason for persuing PR and contact (and believe me I am no big fan of CAFCASS or their abilities but even they can spot someone who isn't genuine and child centred in their choices).

Your ds is old enough to have a say in seeing his dad. I believe you said he wants to see his dad but doesn't want him to have PR. Well I'm sorry but he has responsibilities to his son, whether they are officially recongised or not. Ok so perhaps he hasn't lived up to them as you would have like up till now. But you can't deny him his responsibilities.

I feel that you do both need to go to mediation. Stop asking why he hasn't suggested it and suggest it yourself. You will both be angry and probably not achieve very much to start with. But if he (and you) are serious about finding a solution in the best interest of your ds you will go back and try again once you get past some of that past pain and bitterness.
If he can't/won't then maybe that will show you are right to doubt him. But don't assume things are as they were before or that he hasn't changed. Are you still the same person you were ten years ago?

Even so it still doesn't stop the fact that your ds is saying he wants to see his dad.

I would be highly surprised if a young teenager has any concept of the phrase PR and what it means unless they had been told about it. Have you been telling your ds about it and what it means and has he then decided he doesn't want his dad to have it? Be careful. You will look like you are trying to dictate this decision if he is too well informed about what it means. I don't know any child, teenager or not, who says 'I want to see my dad but I don't want him having PR'

I understand you have concerns and are worried. But why? What is behind his? And are you not willing to accept that your ex (his dad) may have changed? He has after all got a hob now, surely that's proof of some change in his life...

Your Ex you want to give PR to can't acquire it. He would need to be married to you at the time.

Resolution are you saying I cannot give, or share, PR? I thought I'd read somewhere that I could whether it be his father, or a family memmber or a person who is ivolved in the day to day care of my son?

www.childrenslegalcentre.com/OneStopCMS/Core/TemplateHandler.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7b6B68E19E-4334-4B72-AFB1-5B477552177D%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fLegal%2bAdvice%2fChild%2blaw%2fParentalResponsibility%2fCanpeopleotherthanparentsacquireparentalresponsibility&NRCACHEHINT=NoModifyGuest

It is not automatic and you have to be considered one of the groups allowed to do so to do it. It is done through court, even if it does seem like a form filling exercise, it isn't.

Here is the step parent form, you will see you/your ex don't qualify for this way of obtaining PR for him. You need to take your marriage certificate to court too for example...
www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/cpra2_1205.pdf

SK1ER why are you so determined to do this? It's hard enough dealing with an ex who is the parents father when they don't agree with you and have PR. Why would you want to throw another ex in there!? If you are worried about what would happen if you were ill or died you can write a will stating your requests. Given the age of your ds it all seems irrelevant and you're making likfe stressful for yourself.
WHy are you so against his parental father? You still haven't answered that. I'm not just being nosy, I'm trying to gain some insight into why you are fighting this so hard.

sorry who is the child's parent I meant of course

SK1ER - I think you are referring to the informal delegation of PR - ie the act of letting another person look after your child. This occurs when you drop your child off at school or leave your child to be looked after by a friend.

The person you leave your child with does not acquire parental responsibility.

Skier - section 3(5)of the Children Act 1989 says that a person who does not have pr for a child but who has care of the child may (subject to the provisions of the Act) do what is reasonable in all the circumstances of the case for the purposes of safeguarding or promoting the child's welfare.

I am not sure what you want to achieve here, other than make it clear to your child's biological father, that you think he is a waste of space.

If he was refused PR before, what makes his case stronger now? The court will only grant PR if to do so will be in the child's best interests. They will look at the issues of his attachment/relationship with the child, his understanding of PR and the reasons he wants it.

If he has a good relationship with his child and sees him often, if he understands that PR is about recognising his status as a father in the eyes of the law NOT as a means of trying to cause trouble for you, then he should get it.

But this is why I think the whole concept of PR is such a nightmare. It gets people worked up far out of proportion to what it means or what it can achieve. You are basically stuck with the fact that someone you don't rate has fathered your child. Your child is rather stuck with this as well.

Better to try and reach some accommodation with the father OR do your best to protect your child from him, if you think the situation requires it, but I am still hazy as to what you hope to achieve by wanting someone else to have PR.

I second what Spero has said. PR can be over rated.

My objection to my son's father having PR is that he will only use it as a legitimately endorsed whipping stick towards me.

all the other benefits of Pr he has always had, consultation regarding son's school's, medical, out of school activities etc.

He has had 13 years to appeal the original decision or make a fresh application yet he has not done so.

His application this time came less than two weeks after the CSA informed him he will not HAVE to pay for his child, previous to that he was paying £5 per month! saying he was skint, in front of his son yet, also in front of his son, thinking I would be somehow be perturbed he also said he 'has a life' and went into some details of it, all of which would require more financial outlay for him than £5 per month!

As my son is far from stupid you can guess what message he got from that and unfortunately he did, he thinks his dad cares more about going out than he cares about financially supporting him :(

I want to contect his getting PR because it puts my son in a situation where a court can make future decisions about his life just as he's at an age, nearly 15, where he's being allowed more and more freedom to make his own decsisions.

Whether a court would agree to his dads contesting of nearly every decision I make is almost irrelevant, it's what it will do to my son psychologically, knowing that it COULD happen should his dad, as he almost always does, take umbrage at an imagined attack from me, which is how his dad views my decisions, I'm seriously beginning to wonder if he doesn't suffer from some low level form of paranoia because it's quite odd behaviour.

Without PR my son's dad has less leverage legally.

I'm sorry, it should say the CSA have informed him he WILL have to pay for his child, not that he will not :)

SPero:

He has now shown responisibility to his son, the CSA have had to force him to pay child support.

His reasons are not genuine, they are a reaction to being forced by the CSA to do something he doesn't want to do.

Even when he was paying a small sum he made a point of paying it my mother!?

He is a very spoilt person and he hates being told to do something.

His application years ago was in almost identical circumstances, he dissappeared for almost 2 months, made no contact whatsoever with his son, called social services and asked them to make me let have access, I refused, not only because of his disappearing, refusing to take any responsibility and because he'd disaapeared off with him all afternoon shortly before he went walkabout and the police had to 'escort him home' to me with my son!

He was angry that he didn't get his own way and initially tried to get complete custody but he must have been advised that probably wasn't going to happen given his behaviour!

I requested mediation before the trial, which we did, we then went into court and I stated I did not feel he would use PR wisely and the court agreed with me and basically said they left the ball in my court to give him PR if or when he showed signs of being more likely to use it wisely.

he has yet to do so.

He has refused mediation this time and I suspect it's because he doesn't want a comprimise, this isn't about his son much if at all, it's about him having been made to do something he doesn't want to do so now he is going to try and get the court to make me do something I don't want to do.

It's like dealing with a 6 year old

But at 15 PR is practically useless anyway. All it would give him would be thr right to see school reports. Can you imagine a doctor not asking for your son's consent to medical treatment, or can you imagine someone other than your son deciding on what A levels to take and which university to apply to? Because that's what PR is all about. For younger kids it's needed. For older kids it's practically meaningless.

Fair enough if your son doesn't want him to have it. But don't you think that fighting over it adds to the hostility? He hasn't I presume applied to court yet. Politely explain to him that your son has refused, and leave it at that. If he does apply to court just tell that to the court. Don't waste any money fighting it. It's not worth it.

Spero:

Sorry,
'He has now shown responisibility to his son, the CSA have had to force him to pay child support.'

Should read

He has NOT shown responisibility to his son, the CSA have had to force him to pay child support.

Resolution

the concern is what having PR would mean he could try to do rather than what he may or may not achieve.

It gives him a legally sanctioned way of causing trouble, for example he could then, if he had PR, apply for Prohibited steps orders, Specific issue orders etc.

As I said earlier, whether the court agrees with him or not is not highly relevant at this point it's the POTENTIAL trouble he could casue that worries me and my son.

My son has said he doesn't want his dad to have PR for the same reason.

My son also doesn't want a court or CAFCASS etc making decisions about his life, all well meaning people I'm sure, but he doesn't know them nor them him.

Son's father has also applied for contact (it was never denied to him but was suspended until he made his house safe) and has asked that there be no set days or times, his reason is he doesn't want his son to feel inhibited by that but:
A: We believe he wants it that way so it will fit around HIS life not his son's
B: I can't see a court agreeing to that as it is very very difficult to enforce

I'm sorry for using caps, I'm not shouting I just haven't figured how to do italics on here yet :)

Resolution:

He already has a right to see anything from my son's school, I've personally contacted every school he's attanded and asked them to send duplicates of everything to his dad, his dad, until last year was always named on the contact form as well.

Re medical treatment I still have to sign as my son is still legally a minor.

Re education, my son wants to go to college and uni, as this would mean his dad would have to continue to pay child support we're worried that having PR would enable him to cause trouble and may very well inhibit my son from making choices he wants for fear of his dad raising objections, the court process having to be gone through even if his dad's request is rejected.

I have long term health issues, serious physical problems and any stress, as it doea with healthy people, causes problems, for me it can be potentially fatal.

My son is aware of this and this could cloud his judgement.

My son shouldn't feel he can't make his own choices for fear of the consequences from his dad's reaction having a severe or fatal consequence on his mum

And more disturbingly, given he could have agreed to mediation and saved me the court process, his father is aware of it as well

OK. All I can do is tell you how the court tends to deal with these things. It's up to you to make the decisions, and ultimately may be up to a judge.

Re medical treatment though, your son is Gillick competent. You'll get hundreds of google hits on that one.

Also, the father doeasn't have the right to school reports - he receives them with your consent. That's different to having a right. You could withdraw your consent at any time.

Good luck. I hope things work out for your family.

I think any Judge would just throw up his hands in horror at being asked to adjudicate on PR for a 15 year old... I doubt very much anyone would qualify for any public funding on this.

My view is that PR is for the benefit of the child. If a 15 year old does not want his dad to have it, that is almost certainly the end of the matter.

I do think op that you are giving PR far, far, too much power. Your ex is an arse. He will be and remain an arse whether or not he has PR. A lack of it hasn't stopped him being an arse for past 13 years has it??

Mediation sounds utterly useless in these circs. Given your child's age, you are almost at the point where it is pretty useless for parents to start dragging each other in and out of courts. The wishes and feelings of the child will be usually be the end of the matter from now on.

I wish you the best of luck, and without wishing to sound patronising and appreciating I don't know the full story or just how much you've gone thru, but I do think your energies could be better spent than continuing to fuel the fires of your indignation against ex.

I speak from bitter personal and professional experience by the way. If he is an arse, he is not going to change. You can only change your reaction to him.

I want to be able to have given DS's dad PR a long time ago.

I would have loved nothing more than for my son to feel he free to express his wishes and feelings to both his parents without fear of anything.

DS's dad has almost always had unlimited access but I was advised last year by a social worker I contacted that I should not allow access to happen in his dad's house until it was made safe.

His dad said he could not afford to take him anywhere so access could only take place at his home.

I then had to say I was sorry but that couldn't happen again until his house was made safe.

He refused just because I had asked him to! Whatever happened to people WANTING to make an environment safe for their child?

I've given and given and given irregardless of my negative feelings towards his father (I ended the relationship in 1997, the feelings are borne of how he's treated his son) yet he won't even meet a third of the way let alone halfway.