LONG - Please help - families with 3+ kids

[Maxorias]

Hello everyone,

Warning - this is gonna be long: I just need to get it out: Please be nice, or if you can't just move on:

I have two son just 18 months apart: They are wonderful boys and also get along really well (with the occasional bout of sibling squabbling but really have a beautiful relationship):

I have always wanted either 2 or 3 kids, never could quite decide which: After my second was born I started thinking about it: I didn't want them to have a huge age gap as I knew I wouldn't want to go back to nappies and sleepless nights so I felt the pressure to decide quickly: Took me a year to decide to hesitantly go for it: When the first test was negative, I was crushed, and took this to mean that I really wanted a third:

In the end it took IVF but it was successful and I had my third child: When she was born I was very happy and for a few months, my life seemed perfect:

Fast forward to now, my daughter is eleven months old and I've been having a huge wobble and anxiety: It started a few weeks ago, seemingly out of the blue (but did coincide with some financial issues): At first I couldn't understand what was going on, I started questioning my relationships, everything: Now, after a lot of soul searching, I realize I'm terrified of not being able to give my kids enough: Enough of everything: Enough of me, enough treats, enough holidays: I spend my time obsessing on everything we could do with just my eldest two as opposed to three: I think about the money I spent on IVF that we could really use now:

When I decided to go for it my youngest was under 2 years old: Now he's 4 going on 5: Back then I felt like, what's one more baby ? I figured as the older two would grow up they'd need me less and it'd be fine: I didn't fully appreciate that even as kids need less hands on intervention they do need more input:

The smallest things can make me feel bad: For instance we took the kids to a parc with a teleferic the other day, they loved it, but all I could think was that I would be able to do more outings like this if it was just the two of them: I regret my third child: I feel so awful saying that because she's a beautiful baby who deserves better than to be regretted: So I feel guilt towards her, and guilt towards my older two:
The things that make me feel better are spending time with the kids, which I generally do whenever I'm not at work: I also feel a bit better when I see my eldest interact with my youngest as he's wonderful with her (wants to help bathe her, makes her smile and giggle, etc): But my middle child is very jealous of her being the baby and I feel awful about him being relegated to being a middle child: I was a middle child myself and was okay with it so never thought it'd be an issue: But now I think he'd be better of as the youngest: He's very addicted to screens (always has been) and the thought of leaving him in front of screens while I'm busy with the baby makes me feel terrible (I've recently taken steps to further limit screen time):

I just feel this pit of anxiety most days: You know how some people stress eat ? I'm the opposite: When I'm stressed out/anxious, I may be hungry but the thought of eating makes me sick: I'm also unable to drink alcohol: Usually I enjoy my food and I like the occasional glass of wine but lately have struggled with that, been skipping a lot of meals: I'm a healthy weight but I know this is an unhealthy dynamic: I'm obsessing over this and this is impacting everything, on top of being utterly exhausting: I know it doesn't help - my daughter is here now and dwelling on might-have-beens doesn't help: And I know I'm probably massively idealizing life with two: In fact if I had two I might be obsessing over having lost the opportunity to have three and feel awful about that, who knows:

I read somewhere that two children is not enough and three is too many: I think this is how I really felt and this is why it took me so long to decide: I was afraid of regretting it if I didn't, and most people in my close circle had three: My parents had three, my grand-parents had three (other set had five !), my uncle had three kids, my aunt had three kids::: my friend said she wanted six (!), my brother and SIL wanted four or six: So it didn't feel like this many: Sometimes I watch youtube videos about large families to make me feel better about it - when you see people with 8+ kids, three doesn't seem that many:

My children are so wonderful and I love them so, so much, it hurts sometimes: I cry just at the thought of giving less than everything: It's funny because I always loved them but all of a sudden it feels a thousand times more intense:

Sometimes I tell myself that my worries center a lot around the age gap rather than number of kids - my older two can do most stuff together whereas I have to plan separately for my daughter: But it also makes me feel worse because I feel then that I had the perfect set up, why did I mess it up ?

I struggle to give time and attention to my partner because I feel awful taking time away from my kids: I allowed them to start sleeping in our bedroom because having them close made me feel a bit better: I feel guilty about not allowing it before (to be fair my son used to kick in his sleep, but right now I just want to hold them and not let go):

It may be worth mentioning that this year has been very full on: My daughter was born, we had two major family holidays, we moved to a new country, and now face financial worries as the new country is a lot more expensive than I thought it would be: I wonder if this could have been caused by ppd but it seems odd, my daughter's delivery was by far the easiest of the three (came in two hours with no pain), and I was feeling great until a few weeks ago:

Please, if anyone has been through anything similar, does it get better ? Is it normal to feel this way ? Will it get better as my daughter grows up and can interact more with her siblings ?
My main worries are :

• having less money for activities
• not being able to give them as much time as they need
• Having a less intimate relationship with them that I might have had
• their sibling dynamic being negatively impacted by being three instead of two

I could really use a hand hold/positive stories/a positive spin on this right now:

Would love to talk to a professionnal but like I said, money's tight atm and we live in a different country so have to be private:

Sounds like you have anxiety OP, and you’re fixated on the number of children you have and money.

probably because it’s a really easy topic of conversation for those around you, so it’s reinforcing your anxiety to keep talking about it.

At the end of the day you cannot change it now, you cannot send her back.
You have to accept your decision and stand by it and make the best of it.

I had two, with an 18m age gap, had a contraception failure and had twins, one of whom has a rare genetic condition and has special needs. When the twins were two I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I’m currently mucking about on mn because sitting in A&E with a suspected brain bleed, the twins are 5.

You’ll make it work because you have to.

Hey, I really appreciate you taking the time to post: Yes, I know you're right: I know I need to let go, not sure how though:
Trying to plan family time as spending quality time with the kids does help:
I guess the problem isn't that my life is bad now (it isn't, and it's good to remember that), it's that I keep comparing it to what it could have been (in my imagination, which does not necessarily bear any ressemblance with reality):
I hope your health improves: So sorry to hear you're in A&E, I hope everything turns out as well as possible for you:

I think this is a very western problem, the pressure to give a child everything and for there to be no hardships in life at all and for everything t be perfect. The reality is neither this is possible or needed to create a well rounded and happy adult. We regularly visit my husbands family in a developing country. Families are typically large unless there are fertility issues. Tbh the children often appear happier and mentally healthier then kids over here that get everything.

Firstly, it sounds like you are having an anxiety spiral and focusing on the number of kids. Do you normally have anxiety/ could it be post partum anxiety talking? I say this not to minimise your worries but just that we often think that if we are worrying, it must be because something is wrong- but this is not always the case, if you have anxiety attack you feel worried and your brain just latches onto possible explanations

About your kids- a four year gap seems big now but when they are all in school it will seem smaller and when they are adults it will seem unimportant. Also one year olds are really hard work, and 4-5 year olds are much harder than 6+, so now is probably the most challenging it is ever going to be. If you are surviving now, you will be doing fantastically in a couple of years.

I have three. Sometimes I think how easy it is with the older two and think I must have been mad to have three. Then the older one claims she would rather be an only child and the younger two go off and have loads of fun together whilst oldest sulks; the middle one has a lovely caring side that was really brought out by having a younger sibling... etc

Thank you for that perspective: Tbh I never felt that pressure before (else I wouldn't have gone for the third): Don't know why I suddenly feel it now:

An easy number of kids is always n-1.

I think PP is right, the decision is made so there's no point dwelling on the downsides now. There are lots of positive, each child has twice as many sibling relationships so twice the chance they will have a sibling they get on with well in adulthood etc. I love seeing all the different ways my three can get on and play with each other.

Unless you're actually struggling to put food on the table then I wouldn't worry about what you're providing for them. Life with three is different than with two but it doesn't mean it's worse.

N-1, so true!

I sometimes think "oh with two, one parent could mind them whilst the other gets some free time". But when we had two, I thought "oh with one....."

@MotherOfCrocodiles thank you for replying !
I don't usually have anxiety: In fact I can only think of maybe two other instances I ever felt as anxious as I do now, and both times it just resolved after a few days (I accepted it and moved on): This time it's been going on for weeks and showing no sign of going away: But then the other two times it didn't involve a life-long decision that I couldn't take back:

Thank you for the glimmer of hope ! I guess I'm also worried because my son's school said he was going to have homework starting from next year (I'm in the southern hemisphere so it's summer holidays now): and all I could think was: when am I going to get this done ? I feel like stuff is just more and more and more work instead of getting to be less work:

I have told myself that stuff will be easier once my youngest is 5: but then I feel guilty about missing out on my eldest son's childhood (before he becomes a sulky teenager !) and all the things I could have done with them:

Look I've also suffered from anxiety and what I've learned is - the problem you've fixated upon, in this case the number of children, cannot be solved by talking or thinking it through. You will endlessly search for reassurance, information, anecdote to try to relieve your feelings. But this is a rumination, it's a symptom of anxiety not the cure and it won't help you to feel better, it will actually make you feel even more obsessed and therefore even worse.

You need to look at more effective techniques for managing your anxiety. I found particularly helpful:

1. When an anxious thought enters my mind, I write it down and put it off. I think "I will return to this at (an allocated time), I'm not going to think about it now". Then you often find the overwhelming urge to ruminate has passed by the time the allocated time comes around. I usually feel better with some rest, and get into my own head way too much in the evenings (!) so if I think "I'm going to worry about this in the morning" that usually means worrying much less than giving it attention later in the day when I'm tired.

2. Paying close attention to something. So when the anxious thought arises, that is the time to find something, anything to pay close sensory attention to instead. So there might be a hobby or activity you do which particularly fulfils this purpose, but even if you have nothing in particular, you can look around the room and appreciate colours, textures, sounds, scents etc. Ground yourself in this moment. Nature is really helpful for this.

3. Exercise more, get outside more and sleep more. Difficult as a parent. I expect you are recovering from Christmas still.

Don't be shy to contact your GP / self refer to a mental health service. It doesn't have to be a big deal they can just signpost you some useful techniques. The problem isn't your children I'm sure they are fine. Every family set up is different and has pros and cons. Your anxiety / rumination is the problem and actually, engaging with the subject of number of children is making things worse it won't fix how you're feeling.

This is postnatal depression, OP. See your gp, they'll really be able to help x

Yes, with two, one was a breeze and two were tricky. Now two seem no trouble at all. I think I just need to borrow another child for a couple of months and then three will be simple. 😀

What does N-1 mean?

It does sound like something you need to speak to a professional about. But also, wow you have had a mad and busy year.

Ahah n-1 so true ! I did think this a bit with two, but not nearly as much - as the two have such a lovely relationship so the benefits are very clear, but harder to justify with three: Also as the older two are so close in age it's much easier to do activities with them both: I'm worried about the third being left out: And some people say it's easier with four:

My SIL wanted two and then a large gap before having another two: I think she had the right idea (but I didn't have the luxury of time, she's almost ten years younger):

Another one loving n-1 as a description of perfect family size!

I have three, BBG. Honestly it sounds like you’re in the pits of the worst of it at the moment - at 11 months your baby needs you ALL the time and you can’t give the time to the other two you’d like. I also hadn’t slept for about eleventy billion nights by that point and felt dead most of the time. Another year it will start being easier, and another five years and it will feel amazing.

kindly, you can’t go back to a family of 4, and you will never be that perfect family of 4 that fits easily on theme park rides/can afford hotel rooms, whatever it is. (For me: when I just had one- and that was for four years - he got so many theatre trips. It’s just not affordable as a family of 5 now).

but you’re going to have lots of fun in other ways - you just haven’t written that chapter yet!

it will come. For now - concentrate on the here and now and see if you can talk to a hcp.

Yeah would love to speak to someone but financially not the right time: It may get better in a few months (my job offers a cash advance when moving but I then have to pay it back deducted from my paycheck over six months: So I'm not getting my full salary right now:)

I have a good income but being an expat involves some crippling costs:

And yes it's been a very busy year and I'm feeling exhausted, which probably doesn't help: But then the spiral continues as I think, this year could have been a lot quieter/easier if I hadn't had a third:

Maybe I need to do that, borrow another kid: Actually I promised a friend I would invite her twins for an overnight stay, maybe that will help me feel like I'm on top of things when I hand them back !

@iggleoggle Thanks for the perspective ! Yeah, I think it's the worst time now, when I have all three and they're so little ! I have BBG too: They're so wonderful, I think it's part of it, they're so great I feel like they deserve everything and I'm just not equal to the task:

It's funny because I was never particularly interested in super amazing vacations before: But I guess the anxiety comes because before it was an option, and now it may not be:

I do think anxiety is making everything seem worse, and it's a vicious circle feeding itself as I then focus on every detail that confirm my anxiety:

OP they don't need treats and expensive holidays, they need a mum who isn't suffering from anxiety. Your reaction isn't normal or healthy.

FWIW, I'm the youngest of three and there's a much bigger age gap than yours between me and my siblings who are close together in age. We didn't have much money when I was growing up (never had a holiday abroad) but I had a lovely, stable childhood surrounded by people who loved me including my siblings who made a fuss of me.

I also have three young adult DC and my younger two are closer to each other than they are to the eldest. You've got no idea how the relationship dynamics will pan out as they get older.

Thank you @TheFlyingHorse , you're right and this is how I was feeling prior to now: Don't know why this changed: Occasionally I have glimpses of feeling better and I remember then why I wanted three: It never lasts long but it makes me hopeful that this is just anxiety caused by money worries and exhaustion after a very intense year, and that it'll resolve eventually:

Thank you to everyone who posted so far, you've all been really kind and offered me some much needed perspective: I still feel anxious (don't think this is gonna go away so quickly) but this really helps:

I am also one of three and thought it was fine but now I'm looking back and questioning things: My siblings both have issues (elder sibling has alcohol issues and younger sibling has never held down a job and lives with parents) and I start wondering how much of that is due to us being three and getting less attention: And I know this is dumb ! There are only children with severe MH issues and there are kids of huge families doing very well: One of my aunts had 12 kids (!!), she was a convert to a religion that didn't approve of birth control: I don't have much contact with my cousins on that side (they live in another country) but they told me they're very close:

@Ghouella I had missed your post between two replies, thank you for the helpful, practical tips:
You're probably right that ruminating doesn't help - it's not like I can send her back and even if I could I wouldn't: I don't think my eldest would want that in fact !
I will try your tips to try and detach from this spiral: I do enjoy reading a lot and it's always been my go to coping mechanism/escapism of choice when facing difficult situations: But I'm struggling to focus on anything else: Bit like picking at an open wound !
Exercising, haha, not sure when this could happen, unless wrangling three kids to the park counts: I do enjoy walking (before kids I used to walk for hours with music on):

I think I need to remember that right now I'm worrying about future what-ifs: Right now we're coping fine (I think), my fear/anxiety centers about meeting their needs in the future: And it's dumb because I have no idea what their needs will be or what they will want: Or what our situation will be: It actually helps a lot to realise that, I did feel the anxiety easing a bit as I was typing this:

I have a great job, wonderful healthy kids, an amazing supportive partner: I need to remember that and focus on that rather than fears and anxiety:

I'm glad I posted, it's already helped a lot, just to be able to talk it through:

As a fellow anxiety sufferer, I can guarantee you that this comment is the only solution that you will need.

What you are experiencing is textbook anxiety (perhaps due to how full on and busy your life is at the moment) and anxiety is not rational - it doesn't respond to "logical" solutions like trying to convince yourself why you are being unreasonable. No matter what proof you come out with that you shouldn't be worrying, your brain will keep coming up with new angles and little things to worry about. It's just how anxiety works.

Instead of trying to convince yourself with rational thoughts about why having 3 kids is great, you need an actual proven approach to tackle the anxiety. This could be as straightforward as the tips in the comment above, or if you can't implement them perhaps a CBT therapist will help.

The only way to stop the rumination and fixating on the topic is to not engage with it as you are firing up your amygdala (the area of the brain that's responsible for worrying) and reinforcing the habit of worrying. When you're in the thick of anxiety it seems like there's no light in the tunnel, but I promise that y following a few coping strategies you will soon start feeling normal again.

@avajamesbee Thank you, it does seem like focusing on the here and now helps and trying to leave the worry and anxiety for when it's actually relevant:

Thinking about it I've always been a bit anxious about the future (I used to not be very confident) and one ways I tackled this was by looking far ahead in the future to plan for all possible outcomes: But now looking far ahead in the future seems to trigger my anxiety rather than assuage it !

The sort of "planning for the future" you are talking about is very common with anxiety sufferers, me included. This is because most anxiety sufferers have a lower threshold for coping with the uncertainties in life than people without anxiety. In order to compensate, we try to think about possible future problems and how to solve them in advance in order to "lower" the uncertainty of the future - because in our minds we've already planned for it, so if the situation arises we already have a solution.

In reality however, you can't solve a future problem because it doesn't exist. And the parameters of problems that don't exist keep changing, which means your brain needs to come out with more and more solutions for every variable:

What if money isn't enough for 3 kids? => Yes, we can make more money but what if that means less time to spend with the kids? => What if we have jobs which provide well, have good working hours so we have lots of time with the kids but they are in a different country so we need to move again? => What if we move in order to have a good work-life balance, but we hate life there? => etc.

You can see how every solution leads to a new problem, which keeps your brain in a constant panic mode, leading to more anxiety. This is why looking far ahead in the future triggers your anxiety and the solution is to try some grounding techniques (although if you have the time, I would recommend CBT as it's one thing reading a few comments on MN, another thing getting tailored advice from a professional).

@avajamesbee That makes sense: I think I'm also correlating heavily from my own experience as one of three - which a year ago I would have sworn was a perfectly fine childhood, but now I'm looking at all the ways it was "not enough": (It was enough, I can tell that's just the anxiety talking):

My job requires moving frequently, so I thought having an extra sibling would be nice given that they'll grow up without a group of friends and having to make new friendships every few years:

Maybe having a third for me was just that - future problem solving (anticipating them being lonely and "fixing it" in advance): which led to its own issues: even though it didn't feel like it at the time, if I thought it was that I wouldn't have done it: What a mess: Sometimes I wish I could wake up two years in the past and fix a bunch of things -_- I never ever felt like that before:

I do want to access professional help, the way I feel is awful and I'd do anything to not feel like that anymore: But gotta wait for the situation to stabilize financially:

Though sometimes I think the only true cure will be to see them in a couple of years having a good relationship and feeling like it was worth it:
Not sure I could handle it if they have a shit relationship:
Thankfully my eldest is a wonderful boy who's amazing to his sister, and his brother is also wonderful, he may need a bit more support to actually feel close to his sister as he got "displaced" from baby to middle kid, but with support I'm sure he can get there, he's such a sweet boy: And he liked babyish games so maybe he'll enjoy playing with her while his brother likes more grown up stuff: