2 child limit, why is nothing done about it? Do you agree?

[Hopeforchildren]

Hey guys, so it has been a fee years since the 2 child limit on tax credits. I know a few families with 3 children and started this thread for them. It seems quite odd that nothing has been done about it while most families have more than 2 children and are on low income. I mean not just single parents and non working parents, it’s a common struggle for all this including full time working couples or lone parents. What are your views on this subject. Shouldn’t there be a stop to it since its unfair on the child and even the previous children that has to go without? Before anyone attacking, please bear in mind that some people don’t agree with abortion or feel strongly connected with the baby to terminate the pregnancy. Looking forward to hearing your views. Please stay kind.

I think it hinges on data- are lower-income families having fewer children since the rule change? If so then the rule has been successful. If not, it's hard to justify.

Here's some data: In the first two years of operation, the two child limit has resulted in an additional 150,000 children born into poverty. By the time UC is fully rolled out this will be an estimated 300,000 children.

cpag.org.uk/news-blogs/news-listings/lone-parents-aim-supreme-court-ongoing-legal-challenge-against-%E2%80%98two-child

I don't know whether the number of third children born to benefit claimants has dropped since the introduction of this rule. Even if it has, this cannot be justified if the rights of the children who are born are violated.

Children are human beings with the same universal rights we all enjoy. They are not a disease to be eradicated, even if they are third born to parents on benefits.

OP. Can I kick off at my employer?

How dare they expect me to stretch my salary across 3 children! The same salary when I had 2!!

Can you explain how unjust this is! It's disgraceful. Why doesn't my 3rd get the same money as the others?

Can you help me write a letter to HR?

@puddingbowlee how about 750 a month and split into 3

"Punishing people because they are able to conceive is just another human rights violations"

Just because you are able to conceive doesn't mean that you should again and again and expect the state to support you.

how can you not afford 2 children when there is enough support for 2?

Because often a household where both parents wor, dont get any help. They have to rely in their own, current, income when family planning.

@MerryChristmasUfilthyanimal a job and the social security system is not the same thing. Go get your head fixed! What are you talking about?

@Scarsthelot that is my point, if the living wage way high enough then you would be entitled even when you work as a couple because your income would be classified as low as it actually is!

So you think that the Government are responsible for adults procreating at will with no limitation?

You think that somebody could be unemployed and reproduce as many children that they wish and as a result receive a higher salary than someone who can't afford more than 2 because they work and that's the most they'll ever get.

Is this thread a way to recruit more Tories?

that is my point, if the living wage way high enough then you would be entitled even when you work as a couple because your income would be classified as low as it actually is!

What? Is the living wage was higher, less people would get help.

We all have limits when it comes to what our income affords. That applies to people on benefits too

When I was at school in the last century, girls that were in my class would talk about getting pregnant in order to secure a council flat. They got more benefits (so they said) if you told them you didn’t know who the father was. This was a poor area that had very little going for it in the way of employment opportunities. If you weren’t bright enough to go off to university you didn’t really have many options open to you. I don’t think the choice to have children for money is as black and white as it may appear.

I don’t think it’s the 2 child limit that is unfair, more the crippling cost of housing especially in areas where the most jobs are.

However unfair it may be I do think we need to teach our daughters the dangers of having children with fuckwit partners, especially if you are not married. I also think in this misogynistic society women need to keep in employment or be able to go back into employment if the father does a runner. It’s not Romantic but it’s not a fluffy world out there. Especially now we got the tories for another 5 years (and probably for a decade if labour don’t sort themselves out).

how about 750 a month and split into 3

what does that have to pay for?

@TheClausSeason l don’t think the aim was directly to reduce the birth rate. I think it was to stop excessive spending of taxpayers money? After all if people can’t afford another child, they should not be having another one. Whether the parents are on benefits or not?

how can you not afford 2 children when there is enough support for 2?

Because there's fuck all support besides CB that we are entitled to.
Because we own a(small,mouldy, falling apart) one bedroom flat but can't afford anything bigger. The mould and falling apart thing also means that we'd never get anywhere near market value in order to relocate somewhere more affordable.
Because it would mean extra childcare costs.
Because yes we do have some debt from when OH lost his job and we lost nearly everything.
And so on.

@Cuddling57 which third world country did you think you lived in. Get involved in the society and know your rights. I see you are more involved now and know quite a lot

I pay tax and receive fuck all. I can’t afford more than two children.

I’d gladly pay more tax to prevent a child living in poverty.

Shitty irresponsible parents need a good shake up, not the honest ones doing everything they can to make ends meet. Punishing the child benefits no one though.

The largest group affected by the policy once UC is fully rolled out will be working families with three children.

I know two families, one on UC and one on tax credits who have had third children since the cap. Not many women will abort a child for purely financial reasons. Most often they find a way to make ends meet with everybody in that family feeling the pinch.

I don't support the cap. Very few families have more than three children anyway, parenting well is ridiculously hard work. I have five children and most people think that myself and DH are mad.

The cap was ideological in genesis, there are a comparative handful of families with numerous children relying heavily on benefits. Yes, that won't be able to happen anymore, undoubtedly a good thing for all involved. However the money saved from that is quite probably inconsequential, albeit that the policy had the required effect of appeasing the rabid, frothing at the mouth tory voters.

@PanicAndRun then it’s a bit wrong with you agreeing with all the cruel cuts. If living wage was higher and you didn’t earn Enough then when you make an application for benefits it would be taken into consideration when calculating your entitlement. I can see that your in enough trouble to not think straight but it is a fact.

Totally agree.
Horrible policy designed to appease Tory voters and create more stigma for and holier than thou attitudes towards the poor/those who fall on hard times. It's all part of a return to Victorian values of deserving and undeserving poor. And a return the same values that the poor only need utter basics that keep them alive and sheltered with anything else deemed as an unnecessary luxury. Utterly vile.

It's also a policy that contributes to trapping women in abusive relationships. Appalling.

The idea that loads and loads of people were popping out 3+ babies just for extra money or without thought for how they'd afford them is laughable. Would still supporting these children cost more than the money lost through tax dodges from the rich. How anyone can begrudge a child a decent standard of living, I don't know. The utter lack in basic humanity in this country at the moment is frightening.

I wonder how many people saying it's a good policy also give to food banks, children's charities, shelters or anything similar. They are happy to contribute towards services supporting the fallout of austerity policies but don't agree that reducing the need for these services would be a better idea in the first place? (Or maybe some posters don't agree those services should exist either??)

@Hobsbawm Excellent points actually. Hadn’t thought of it like that.

This thread is goady and (from what I can see) full of irresponsible CF’s patting each other on the back over their ability to conceive 🤔

Almost half of the population can conceive and in this wonderful modern world where the failure rate of reliable contraception is less than 0.01% having children is a gift and privilege. Many responsible adults have to plan, save and wait for in order to comfortably afford it, whilst others just go ahead regardless of whether they can provide for the child.

People should be responsible and those who take the ‘oh dear.... well we’ve done it anyway and now theirs a child we can’t feed or clothe so 💰... pay up please government!’ < These people are just bending the U.K. over a barrel with their irresponsible actions.

MN likes to take the 1/10,000 situation and make out like that is normal. It’s not! Actual accidental pregnancies happen but are rare, assault conceptions happens but again rare. Irresponsible adults who think they can do whatever they want and have others pick up the bill - pretty common 👍🏻

If you have a child you can not provide the absolute basics for (and you’re not the 1/10,000) then you are inflicting poverty on a child and mistreating them, not the ‘government’ - you!

(In qualifying circumstances funding for a further child/children is accessible but ‘we just wanted another’ or ‘well I was taking the pill but I guess I might have missed one’ doesn’t qualify)

The U.K. doesn’t have enough resources to keep funding everything. The NHS, pensions, elderly care things like that take priority over ‘I wanna keep having kids I can’t afford’ 😡

@Biscusting 🙌 that’s exactly what i mean 👏👏👏

I agree with the cap.

I'd even say it should be capped at one child!

I also think that any maintenance received should be deducted from benefits.

I'm sick of freeloaders.

Defo a daily mail digger - or wouldn't be so rude in response. Trying to rile everyone up

No one should be entitled to have tax payers pay out for endless children - if you can't afford them don't have them. If you fall on hard times and already have children that is what the system was designed for - I bet the 2 kid rule has helped the feckless stop pro creating as a form of income

I have friends who don't have any dc as they feel they couldn't support them adequately eg struggling to get on the housing ladder. Should they all just do it anyway & rely on benefits?