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Original poster

2 child limit, why is nothing done about it? Do you agree?

399 replies

Hopeforchildren · 27/12/2019 17:28

Hey guys, so it has been a fee years since the 2 child limit on tax credits. I know a few families with 3 children and started this thread for them. It seems quite odd that nothing has been done about it while most families have more than 2 children and are on low income. I mean not just single parents and non working parents, it’s a common struggle for all this including full time working couples or lone parents. What are your views on this subject. Shouldn’t there be a stop to it since its unfair on the child and even the previous children that has to go without? Before anyone attacking, please bear in mind that some people don’t agree with abortion or feel strongly connected with the baby to terminate the pregnancy. Looking forward to hearing your views. Please stay kind.

OP posts:
HotSince82 · 27/12/2019 20:54

puddingbowlee
I agree, they are being sensible and I am wholly sympathetic to those raised in but finding themselves struggling financially in London.

If home ownership and staying in the capital is more important to them than having a child then that is of course the avenue they should continue along. Good luck to them.
I don't believe it makes them morally superior to those making other choices, simply because they have prioritised finances over starting a family.

Original poster
Hopeforchildren · 27/12/2019 20:55

@Selene28 yes of course you should receive benefits if you don’t know the father, its the child that needs the money has nothing to do with the father.
And if fathers are involved and such as a couple yes the male should get the ni contribution too.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hopeforchildren · 27/12/2019 20:57

@eveshopper well that is just another idea since single parents are mainly the topic at the moment

OP posts:
Hollyhead · 27/12/2019 21:04

‘So what happens I'd you have 3+ kids that you could afford and then run in to financial trouble? I'd like to know’

Well I’d argue that you hadn’t planned well enough - deciding on how many children to have should hinge on ‘worst financial case scenario’ not best case.

ConstanceL · 27/12/2019 21:06

OP you ask 'why is nothing done about it' - unfortunately the general public voted the Tories back in with a sizeable majority, so they obviously agree with these kinds of policies, and don't seem to particularly care about other people's children 🤷‍♀️

Zaphodsotherhead · 27/12/2019 21:07

Hollyhead worst financial case scenario isn't necessarily separating parents though... anyone can fall onto hard times and it's often the scenario you really cannot anticipate that hits hardest. Uninsured house fire. Long term hospitalisation and inability to work of one partner or even sudden job loss and long term unemployment. If everyone thought about budgeting for these sorts of things, nobody would have children at all!

FruitcakeOfHate · 27/12/2019 21:08

‘So what happens I'd you have 3+ kids that you could afford and then run in to financial trouble? I'd like to know’

It applies to 3rd children who are not multiples born after 1 April 2017. So if you're planning 3+ kids now you're well warned to do the best you can to plan to provide for all of them or make do on what's given for the first 2 because it's well-known this policy is here and here to stay.

MerryChristmasUfilthyanimal · 27/12/2019 21:10

Why would somebody have an uninsured house fire. Again that's their fault. It's ridiculously irresponsible not to have insurance. That would be solely their fault.

Zaphodsotherhead · 27/12/2019 21:11

You can have insurance but the insurance company refuse to pay out on because the cause is disputed.

MerryChristmasUfilthyanimal · 27/12/2019 21:12

And actually @Zaphodsotherhead as has been mentioned there are insurances against those things. I took them out when starting to TTC DC 2. Its responsible. I am responsible for my children. I love that Thai country has a safety net.
But that doesn't negate my responsibility to do everything possible to be their first support.

MerryChristmasUfilthyanimal · 27/12/2019 21:13

Well that's first rare and secondly it usually means usurer error.

Zaphodsotherhead · 27/12/2019 21:13

And anyone can suddenly fall into long term sickness and be unable to work. Cancer treatment is a bastard for making it nearly impossible to work through.

Scarsthelot · 27/12/2019 21:13

You can have insurance but the insurance company refuse to pay out on because the cause is disputed.

And that's an entirely different issue.

I mean who takes out insurance without knowing the ins and outs? Then plans the amount of kids they are having based on it.

Or has kids knowing if things go tits up, UC no longer pays for 3 plus children born after a certain date?

noodlenosefraggle · 27/12/2019 21:23

I agree with the limit too, if only for environmental reasons. The impact of that 3rd child negates anything else a family does to minimise their environmental impact completely. I also think there should be a blanket limit of 2 children receiving child benefit, or 3 maximum rather than the arbitrary 40k limit. Far easier and cheaper to administer.

Ylvamoon · 27/12/2019 21:28

I support the policy... I don't think in RL it actually effects many families. The UK average is two children, so having a benefits system that supports the average seems fair.

SimonJT · 27/12/2019 21:29

@WorldsOnFire Those of us with chronic/longterm health issues are often unable to purchase IPI. I am uninsurable.

PencilsInSpace · 27/12/2019 21:32

@pencilsinspace and how do explain to your children that you sent their father to prison for money? Especially taking into consideration that this will be enlightened in their teens.

By the time the children's father is sent to prison for non payment of child maintenance:

  1. The mother will have applied to the CMS and the father failed to pay.

  2. The CMS will have set up a 'collect and pay' arrangement and the father will still have failed to pay.

  3. The CMS will have applied for a DEO, at which point the father may suddenly become 'self employed'.

  4. The CMS will have applied for a deduction order (to take money direct from his account), a liability order (allowing bailiffs to seize his goods) and/or a charging order (to force the sale of property) - and still have been unsuccessful in securing the child maintenance.

If all that fails the father can be taken to magistrates court where his driving licence can be taken away or he can be imprisoned. If he has any sense he will attend the hearing and explain his financial circumstances. He will only be sent to prison or disqualified from driving if he is wilfully refusing to pay and will only have his driving licence taken if he doesn't need it for work.

At any point, from 'collect and pay' right up to after the prison warrant has been granted, it is possible to negotiate affordable payment of arrears. All the courts are looking for is willingness to pay and honesty about finances.

If a father is that determined not to pay towards the upkeep of a child he has produced then I would have no problem seeing him go to prison. I wouldn't want a man like that anywhere near my children. It's financial abuse. It's neglect.

I'm sure it's never easy to explain to children that their father is in prison because he abused them. It's only a six week sentence though so easily hidden from children if needed. It's not like he's there to be missed.

WorldsOnFire · 27/12/2019 21:34

What do you see children as objects or something? Luxury seriously 😒

Maybe she sees children as tiny people who require things like food, clothing and shelter, provided by their parents, in order to survive.

What do you see the government as a charity or something? Entitled, seriously. 😒

Legoandloldolls · 27/12/2019 21:37

I have four kids. A bit factor in having a fourth was knowing I could support them even if I lost my job. I personally wouldn't have had more than two if I couldn't guarantee stability for their first 18 years. Luckily at 39 I had enough equity to support my kids myself.

Society will let you down badly if you rely on it solely. It's not what benefits are for. Two child cap didnt stop for kids born before the deadline anyway so no existing kids should suffer this cap.

WhoWants2Know · 27/12/2019 21:39

Have any studies actually been conducted to see if the two child limit has impacted birth rates?

Scarsthelot · 27/12/2019 21:40

Those of us with chronic/longterm health issues are often unable to purchase IPI. I am uninsurable.

But then you wouldnt be having 3 kids, knowing there is no additional support, after the first 2, if there came a time when your finances became difficult.

PencilsInSpace · 27/12/2019 21:41

it's well-known this policy is here and here to stay.

Don't count on this. CPAG have mounted a very strong case and the High Court agreed that the two child rule violated children's human rights. They just thought the government should fix it, not the courts. If it gets to ECHR the government will have no choice but to fix it or else be in deliberate breach of international human rights law.

MerryChristmasUfilthyanimal · 27/12/2019 21:42

And when will the parents start being held accountable?

It's not the House of Commons popping out the children. Seriously this is getting ridiculous.

TheABC · 27/12/2019 21:43

The UK average family size is 1.8 children. So the 2-child cap does reflect that. I doubt many of us check out the benefit requirements before trying for a third, but it fits both environmental and social values.

What does need sorting is CMS payments : in this, I think we should take a harsher line as they do elsewhere: automatic deductions and swift reprisals if you try to dodge the minimum requirements. There also needs to be better support for bereaved partners/spouses and those who are carers. But that would take up another thread in its own right.

FruitcakeOfHate · 27/12/2019 21:44

Don't count on this.

Then the Tories will find another way. You're fooling yourself if you think a Tory government and all their supporters are going to start rolling out the benefits carpets for people to sprog. It isn't going to happen, anymore than UC is going anywhere.