Are many other Jews feeling increasingly conflicted about Israel?

[Newbutoldfather]

Firstly, a bit about myself.

I have always lived in the UK, and no one has been religious in my family since my grandparents, but I am 100% Ashkenazi Jew by descent and grew up in a community which was about 50% Jewish (think a nice area of N London, but not somewhere like Golders Green or Stamford Hill).

I was brought up to think of Israel as a safe and welcoming place for Jews and a small plucky country surrounded by enemies. I was also proudly told that Israel made the desert bloom and it was the only democracy in the middle east (both true at the time). I had quite an old father who saw the end of WW2 as an adult and witnessed the creation of Israel.

I have only visited there once for a couple of months as an older teenager, several decades ago, and had an amazing time being hosted by distant relatives, whom I have sadly lost touch with.

And I have always, and still do, believe in Israel’s right to self defence.

But…..the current government, and especially the religious right, worry me. Smotrich and Ben-Gvir are self avowed racists and show no signs of being reined in by Netanyahu. Western countries have already sanctioned some of the Jewish West Bank leaders and Cameron wanted to sanction Ben-Gvir and Smotrich. The idea of the U.S and the U.K sanctioning Israeli politicians would have been unthinkable 25 years ago. As an Israeli writing to the Times said, it is hard to criticise Iran as a theocracy if Israel is on the way to becoming one….

And what is Israel’s end game vis-a-vis the Palestinians/Palestine? They have definitely not been treating their POWs according to the Geneva convention and Sde Teiman is as much of a blot on the Israeli national conscience as Guantanamo is for the U.S. The recent U.S letter to Israel about not allowing provisions into Northern Gaza is also chilling. And firing on the U.N?!

Yes, Israel was more than sorely provoked by Hamas, and they are in somewhat of an existential struggle with the axis led by Iran, but does that give them carte blanche to do what they want for however long they want?

So, I am very torn. I want to think of Israel as my and my family’s safe place should the need ever arise, but not it becomes an aggressive theocracy. At some point I have to say not in my name, and I am very fast approaching that point (if not over it).

I am curious as to other Jewish views on this.

I tend to agree with this, but it doesn’t mean I like it.

I think Israel’s intent really matters here, which I find really hard to discern.

I agree that they need to fight hard to eliminate threats, and there will be collateral damage, including a fair few civilian deaths.

If the war aim is to eliminate terrorist threats, and then work with the Palestinians and the international community to build a prosperous safe region for all, including a two state solution, then I would wholly support it.

If the intention is to annexe and settle the occupied territories and drive the Palestinians off the land, I totally condemn it.

I guess time will tell.

"I agree that they need to fight hard to eliminate threats, and there will be collateral damage, including a fair few civilian deaths." @Newbutoldfather

I have to disagree.
They need to call a truce, stop firing, get the hostages back and start talking about how the people of that region are going to put an end to decades of violence.
Both Hezbollah and Hamas are so denuded that their threat has been dramatically reduced and Iran are certainly not up for getting embroiled in a full scale war.

Why keep on destroying peoples' lives on this scale ?

Same here. I might not always agree with tactics but I still believe it is a fight for survival.

I suspect the reason many people believe this statement is because a lot of them are uneducated about the Holocaust and primarily perhaps the majority will be people under the age of 30. The fact that our tv screens are filled daily with images of Palestinians suffering in the aftermath of Israeli bombs does not help. The BBC and others fuel the Hamas PR campaign.

Both sides use the Nazi analogy lazily.

But I am not at all convinced that Israel is facing any kind of an existential threat and this conflict has highlighted it.

I just don’t think there is much evidence that Iran and her ‘axis’ can inflict much real damage.

I do think that that Israel needs to deal with the threats but that how they do it should be seen through the lens of a regional superpower (aided by a global superpower) dealing with a threat, and not of a small plucky country in an existential struggle.

I must disagree with you. The constant bombardment of rockets and missiles from Gaza and south Lebanon, funded by Iran, is definitely a threat to Israel. We may not agree with how the Israeli government is handling the situation it finds itself in but who can take the risk of letting Hamas and Hezbollah run riot?

LetThereBeLove. My friend lives 45 mins east of Tel Aviv in a small village. I was shocked at the videos she sent from her family house of bombs raining down nearby, with no idea where they would land. She said the kids don’t even react when they’re taken to the shelters, even when they’re woken in the night. They’re so used to it, it’s their way of life. I think the reality of what Israelis are living with is rarely if ever reported. Yes, they have shelters but everyday bombardment with what looks like a deadly firework display near your house, is no way anyone should be living.

Exactly, @Shhhthedogssleeping

Yet one more reason (to add to the thousands of others) to end this madness now.

@LetThereBeLove ,

‘I must disagree with you. The constant bombardment of rockets and missiles from Gaza and south Lebanon, funded by Iran, is definitely a threat to Israel. We may not agree with how the Israeli government is handling the situation it finds itself in but who can take the risk of letting Hamas and Hezbollah run riot?’

How is it a threat to Israel? I am not denying it is a threat to Israelis, but that is not what an existential threat means.

I don’t disagree at all that the terrorist groups, and Iran, need to be dealt with, but seeing it through the lens of a regional superpower means that Israel needs to be held accountable as to how they do it.

So, the pager attack on Hezbollah was brilliant, as was the surgical strike on Iran. But using 200 ton bombs on civilian areas in Gaza looks very much like a war crime, as does trying to starve Gazan civilians.

Ultimately Israel has the time and wherewithal to defeat the terrorists and plan a decent settlement for the civilians, backed by the U.S.

Letherebelove wrote
"I must disagree with you. The constant bombardment of rockets and missiles from Gaza and south Lebanon, funded by Iran, is definitely a threat to Israel."

A threat, yes. But not an existential one. A quick look at the weapons and manpower of the protagonists will tell you that Israel cannot be invaded and overthrown. Not even if you include Iran.
The existential threat is a myth.

Just like the "Hamas broke the ceasefire on Oct 7th " is a myth.

Just as " The Palestinians have rejected every offer of peace since 1948" is a myth.
The peace offers have been far more nuanced than this statement would suggest. Both parties share the blame.

Oh..................... and this weeks foody tips.

1. Waitrose have dropped the price of a box of Rakusen's from 2.20 to 1.75. I don't know how long for.
2. Lidl do a great tub of herring in dill and apple sauce for £2.19. With a large , sharp knife, remove fish and a little sauce and chop herring to desired consistency. Spread on above Matzohs with slice of cucumber.

Regardless ?

@mouthpipette ,

‘Just as " The Palestinians have rejected every offer of peace since 1948" is a myth.
The peace offers have been far more nuanced than this statement would suggest. Both parties share the blame.’

I do think the offer made to Arafat at the Camp David summit was 90% of what the Palestinians demanded and few understand why Arafat rejected it.

I think he was a kleptocratic ruler who realised that he would be exposed in a time of peace.

Up until the recent past, I do think Israel was righteous in the way it defended itself and did just want to coexist peacefully with its neighbours.

But Netanyahu and the religious right seem to have a different and darker agenda.

Because the 10% was also something he couldn't sell to his people. I think Taba came closer. The reality is that Arafat couldn't give away right of return. That was a huge sticking point, even aside from Israeli intransigence on some territorial issues. The agreement called for a symbolic return, but it's doubtful whether Arafat could have gotten agreement. The Israeli offers at Sinai and Taba did have some issues, as well, though I'd need to go check to remember the exact details.

It seems like Taba was on the way to achieving a deal. They were getting closer to sorting territory, refugees, military, and security. Jerusalem wasn't sorted though.
It was circumstances that stopped them getting closer.

Arial Sharon being elected, meant they ceased.

(It'd be interesting to know if, during his running for prime minister, he ran on a ticket of "I'll end the discussions" )
Am I being too cynical ?
Should I get out more ?

Though Arafat suggested 18 months later they be resumed, but Sharon had no interest.

All the above courtesy of Wiki, apart from the joke, which was AI.

1. Turn off British News.
2. Stand by Israel until every hostage has been returned!!!

Erez Kalderon this week had his Bar Mitzvah, but it was not a happy occasion as his father is still held hostage in Gaza. Why has he and all the other hostages not been released?

Nope. I support it more than ever after October 7th!

Waitingforfriday75 · wrote

Turn off British News.

Why ? Because you are horrified by the descriptions and images or because you feel British News is not objective?

Stand by Israel until every hostage has been returned!!!
I'd agree with that, but standing by Israel also includes being critical of it when it transgresses.

Erez Kalderon this week had his Bar Mitzvah, but it was not a happy occasion as his father is still held hostage in Gaza. Why has he and all the other hostages not been released?

Because getting the hostages returned is not particularly high up on Netanyahu's agenda. Hamas cannot "trade" with someone who won't do a deal. Get rid of Netanyahu and you start to solve the problem.

@Newbutoldfather wrote
But Netanyahu and the religious right seem to have a different and darker agenda.

It seems that you're spot on. There's a good article on the sacking of Gallant. Gallant wanted the Haredi to be called up, and this was upsetting the Haredi, who, if they left the coalition, could cause major problems for Bibi. So, get rid of Gallant ( A pal of the US) whist there's a major distraction in the USA. Far more detail and depth and insight into the dark machinations of Netanyahu in this article.

forward.com/opinion/671647/yoav-gallant-firing-reckless-decision-netanyahu/

@mouthpipette ,

I don’t believe for one moment that the hostages were remotely high on Netanyahu’s list of priorities, and this week has reveal another scandal in his inner circle.

He is now openly speaking about not allowing any form of two state solution.

Gallant was a tough but fair leader and someone with integrity and presence on the international stage.

It is too easy to see our relaxed democracies being replaced by a world of ‘big men’ and their fawning acolytes who are granted ‘fiefdoms’ (not necessarily land) by their master. We will have Trump, Putin, Xi…..and maybe Netanyahu.

If 7th October never happened and if rockets didn't keep flying into Israel daily for the last few years, then yes I'd believe in a 2 state solution.

BUT 7TH OCTOBER DID HAPPEN AND ROCKETS HAVE BEEN FLYING INTO ISRAEL FOR YEARS!!!

Gaza has TWO WALLS! 1 going into Israel, and 1 GOING INTO EGYPT! Why haven't the Egyptians opened the wall and let the Gazans in? Why has no other Muslim country allowed Gazans to move to their countries?!?

Benjamin Netanyahu is the greatest prime minister Israel has ever had! He fights everyday to protect all the people of Israel.

I am so sick of British women who have never lived in a conflict comment about a situation they could never imagine being in. For the last time, STOP WATCHING BRITISH MAINSTREAM NEWS! British mainstream media believe every single word that comes out of Hamas mouth, which is insane!!! When an obvious terrorist attack happens in Israel, they flat out refuse to call it a terrorist attack as they believe driving a lorry into innocent people at a bus stop is an "act of resistance" 😡

Many people who haven’t visited or lived in Israel recently, or who don’t have family there, aren’t aware of what life is like for many Israelis. It’s not reported in our media. If I hadn’t seen the videos sent by my friend of rockets raining down over their home, the sirens going off at all hours and the scramble to the nearest shelter, I’d have no idea. The kids don’t bat an eyelid anymore at being taken out of bed and down to the shelter in the night. Maybe a protest at being woken up , but nothing more. It’s their way of life. The ears and eyes out for advice and instructions, the cancelled flights, closed airspace etc. Truly, without her, I’d have no clue all this was going on.

@Newbutoldfather
Gallant was a tough but fair leader and someone with integrity and presence on the international stage.

It's easy to see Netanyahu as the blood thirsty, self-aggrandising, power hungry, philanderer for which he is, and as such, it's tempting to believe that because of his fall-out with Gallant, that Gallant is the opposite. Certainly Gallant was more of a pragmatist, asking of Netanyahu what his "What afterwards in Gaza?" plan was and also being realistic about Israel not being able to militarily hold onto and govern the strip. However, Gallant's track record was not great. He made a number of very aggressive and belligerent statements including "Returning Lebanon to the stone age if Israel were attacked" and also that he had "Released all restraints" when talking to Israeli troops. "We are fighting human animals" can also be attributed to him. I appreciate that when you are engaged in war, strong rhetoric and threats to your enemy are part and parcel of that conflict. However, he was, for the most part, happy to work under Netanyahu and to do a lot of his dirty work. So I would be wary about portraying him as the voice of reason against Netanyahu's ranting megalomania. Whilst certainly having more humanity and integrity than BN, they are not criteria that are difficult to fulfil.

It's batshit isn't it? Wokeism fries brains.