Are many other Jews feeling increasingly conflicted about Israel?

[Newbutoldfather]

Firstly, a bit about myself.

I have always lived in the UK, and no one has been religious in my family since my grandparents, but I am 100% Ashkenazi Jew by descent and grew up in a community which was about 50% Jewish (think a nice area of N London, but not somewhere like Golders Green or Stamford Hill).

I was brought up to think of Israel as a safe and welcoming place for Jews and a small plucky country surrounded by enemies. I was also proudly told that Israel made the desert bloom and it was the only democracy in the middle east (both true at the time). I had quite an old father who saw the end of WW2 as an adult and witnessed the creation of Israel.

I have only visited there once for a couple of months as an older teenager, several decades ago, and had an amazing time being hosted by distant relatives, whom I have sadly lost touch with.

And I have always, and still do, believe in Israel’s right to self defence.

But…..the current government, and especially the religious right, worry me. Smotrich and Ben-Gvir are self avowed racists and show no signs of being reined in by Netanyahu. Western countries have already sanctioned some of the Jewish West Bank leaders and Cameron wanted to sanction Ben-Gvir and Smotrich. The idea of the U.S and the U.K sanctioning Israeli politicians would have been unthinkable 25 years ago. As an Israeli writing to the Times said, it is hard to criticise Iran as a theocracy if Israel is on the way to becoming one….

And what is Israel’s end game vis-a-vis the Palestinians/Palestine? They have definitely not been treating their POWs according to the Geneva convention and Sde Teiman is as much of a blot on the Israeli national conscience as Guantanamo is for the U.S. The recent U.S letter to Israel about not allowing provisions into Northern Gaza is also chilling. And firing on the U.N?!

Yes, Israel was more than sorely provoked by Hamas, and they are in somewhat of an existential struggle with the axis led by Iran, but does that give them carte blanche to do what they want for however long they want?

So, I am very torn. I want to think of Israel as my and my family’s safe place should the need ever arise, but not it becomes an aggressive theocracy. At some point I have to say not in my name, and I am very fast approaching that point (if not over it).

I am curious as to other Jewish views on this.

Nope.

Strongly behind Israel.

Staunch Zionist.

Am yisrael chai

Supporting Israel in general and supporting everything it does aren't the same. I've been wary of this war since it began. But that doesn't make me an anti-zionist.

@PurpleChrayn and @JaneDoeHere ,

Would you stand behind Israel regardless of what they did? At what point would you decide not to back them?

I am a Zionist in that I think that Israel has a right to exist and be a Jewish state.

But I am not a blind supporter any more than I am of the UK.

I didn't consider myself a Zionist until last October. It just wasn't a label I felt like I needed as I didn't realise just how many people seem to want to wipe Israel off the map. Now I very much consider myself a Zionist. A left-wing Zionist who wishes kibbutzim were what they were half a century ago!

I believe in Israel's right to exist. I also believe in a two state solution. I think Netanyahu and his right-wing extremist friends are truly awful and despicable human beings and I think violent illegal settlers and their supporters are no different from terrorists. I think people often think all settlers are violent and illegal though, which they aren't, and people need to be better at distinguishing between them.

I don't think Israel will change it's stance on a two state solution until other countries and terrorists stop attacking it. I think once Israelis feel safe, things can start to change. As long as people keep trying to kill and kidnap Israelis Israel will remain constantly on both the offence and the defence. I realise "the other side" will be saying exactly the opposite but I sort of feel like if you're the one suffering the most consequences and therefore have the most to gain from changing your tactic, maybe just change it?

It's a shame that CITME board members have spent so much time and effort trying to get Jewish MN suspended and banned with their constant lurking and reporting so a lot of posters won't want to respond to this thread out of fear of being stalked and harassed.

And of course,

Bring Them Home 🎗️

Humdingerydoo wrote …
“………… so a lot of posters won't want to respond to this thread out of fear of being stalked and harassed.”

I’ll rise to the challenge. I’m prepared to be stalked and harassed, so bring it on, I’m happy to give as good as I get from anyone.

@Newbutoldfather
It sounds like you’ve been through, and are going through now, experiences and feelings very similar to mine. Though I think our household might have been more “Jewish” (dare I say Yiddish ?…. My grandfather spoke it fluently and even after being here for 50 years, his English was not great) than yours. That was not written in a spirit of one-upmanship, it was merely a supposition. :-}

Growing up, my parents kept a kosher house and whilst not being beaten, there would be castigation for putting the meat knife within 6” of the butter dish. Never ate out unless omelettes or fish were on the menu and not allowed to visit chippies perchance they might be frying their chips in beef dripping.

I remember my first non-kosher meal. I bought a beef chop suey aged 17 ( me not the chop suey) for 45p was when I was on my own walking home from Maccabi. I just went into a takeaway with absolutely no idea what anything on the menu was, for me it was all just Chinese, and ordered. I actually wasn’t that impressed with it. Mum’s cooking was much better. I bet they couldn’t stretch strudel pastry over the edges of a breakfast room table like she could.

This was all happening in a medium sized provincial town with a congregation in the high hundreds which had a mean Maccabi table tennis team and was a few hours from London. An annual treat for me between the ages of 6 and 16, would be a trip to The Savoy theatre ( Papa was a Gilbert and Sullivan junkie) to see The Doyle Carte bash out any of the Gondoliers, Pirates, Pinafore etc. Whilst the tunes were hummable and the libretto a very neat use of the English language, the real treat was the visit to Blooms that accompanied the annual excursion. Like all good Jews, we loved food, we never ate anything else (Tommy Cooper line) and being given the chance to eat at Blooms was one of the highlights. I remember, as a 7 or 8 year old, being at first enthralled and then impressed at the idea of mirroring one wall so as to make the place look bigger.
And of course we walked to shul. Putting aside the restrictions on all the good food out there that was forbidden,being Jewish for the first 18 years was pretty much OK. I cannot recall any nastiness from other kids for being Jewish ( if I got picked on it was probably because I was a twat) and the number of times at school that I ever heard any disparaging things about my Jewishness could be counted on one hand. Once, or twice idiots would graffiti a swastika or “NF” on the shul but that was about as bad as it got.

In my teen years, in the sixties and seventies, there was plucky little Israel. A people who had only decades before endured one of the most horrific genocides, and who were now turning desert into farms. And wow Kibbutzim. We were so impressed when we heard that they had water fountains that had not just water, but running soda water !!!! But some were sort of socialist, and that made my Telegraph reading Pater uneasy. The other paper we had delivered was the Jewish Chronicle…. Every Friday the delivery boy would come and we would have The Organ of British Jewry put through the letterbox. That was in the day when it was actually an incredibly good paper. It was like the independent on steroids. It had a lot of community news and it was prepared to question the actions of Israel, sometimes in quite a forthright manner. I also remember one question in the “Ask The Rabbi” section was whether or not, battery eggs were Kosher.

With some very fine scientists and engineers, the Jews of Israel were a people that were hard working and resilient. They had seen off two major armies (Sorry Jordan) in the space of 6 years. I even went over there for a Maccabia trip in the early 70s.
So, just like you, there was pride and admiration. We’d sort of brush off the idea that there were some down there who were not being treated quite as well as they might be and who might have some genuine grievances. As for the terrorists, well, they were just terrorists. Though looking back at those days, which include the PFLP, Black September and the PLO, I don’t think there is anyone today who wouldn’t, given the chance and given the horror that we have now, want to turn back the clock 50 years. Maybe 150, but that discussion is for another time.

So yes, for me, Israel the hero of my teens. But decades on and seeing how the country has progressively become more militaristic in its approach to its enemies and the denial of real opportunities for Palestinians, my view has changed. Israel also played the Americans. Israel knows its strategic value and it has milked this.

Please suggest another, but I can’t recall any other Israeli prime minister who has stuck two fingers up to the Americans higher and for longer, than has Netanyahu. He knows he can pretty much do as he wishes and this freedom and his lack of constraint have turned one atrocity into a massive abomination. And worst of all it’s been pretty clear that he is not prepared to negotiate. It will go on until he wants it to end.

Netanyahu is the very worst possible leader they could have.
Do I think Israel should exist ? Of course I do, 9 million Israelis aren’t going anywhere. Why should they ? A good proportion were born there.

Should they live in a state called Israel ? Yes, but Israel has to treat the Palestinians with more respect. Perhaps if they did so, they would find less animosity from them. There has to be resolution to a sore that has festered for decades and negotiation is the only way. Nothing has been achieved thorough this violent response apart from misery and trauma for millions of people.

I simply feel, that Israel has to radically change what it is doing.

Newbutoldfather, you may feel that the line between acceptable and unacceptable is being crossed, but for me that line was crossed some time ago.

PS.
Have you noticed how much of that previous post has been about food ?
They've got to be Jewish.

Yeah sorry @Newbutoldfather but I don't think you'll be getting any more replies now. This is not a safe place.

@mouthpipette ,

Thank you for sharing both your experiences and opinion with me!

I don’t really get the ‘safe space’ thing. If people want to ‘stalk’ me on this site, I don’t really think I will care. And, even if I did, I would just start again with a new account.

Your growing up was very different to mine, for sure. My mother came to London in her early 20s (in the late 50s) and was determined to fit in. She even made my father contract his name so he sounded English. We weren’t really Jewish at all, aside from Jewish friends, often going to our doctor (who was also a family friend) for a traditional seder including smoked salmon, pickled herring and chraim etc.

But my father loved this weird little cafe on the Finchley Road which was filled with Jewish emigres (and pretty bad food) and it was there I learned he spoke fluent Yiddish, and even some Hebrew.

My mother was a determinedly non Jewish Jew until she got quite a bit older when she lived abroad and discovered how many of the ostensibly nice and middle class community were anti semitic. And, ironically, she died of a cancer common to Ashkenazi Jews, of which I have inherited the genetic susceptibility (lucky me).

I agree with a lot of your post re Israel. I spent a few very happy days on a kibbutz, aged 17, and the people were enlightened and welcoming. I fear a lot of the new immigrants are far less well educated and far more religious. I don’t like fundamentalists of any religion, including Judaism, who try to impose old fashioned values on the modern world. It scares me that 11% of Israel voted for the religious party, but at least that means 89% didn’t!

Israel needs new elections soon and a new government, hopefully without needing the support of the religious right.

I do think that it is really important that Jews are not blindly ‘for Israel’. It is not a football game! Israel will only be a Jewish home as long as it embraces the values that we all have, which is allowing all to be safe and be able to have aspirations, regardless of ethnicity or faith. Otherwise it just becomes another country.

@Newbutoldfather wrote
"I don’t really get the ‘safe space’ thing. If people want to ‘stalk’ me on this site, I don’t really think I will care. And, even if I did, I would just start again with a new account."

Spot on. If you have an opinion that you wish to express and you can do so respectfully and courteously, you need to stand up and be counted.
And if idiots with their idiot posts become too annoying, or others get you kicked off, then just stand up and be re-accounted.

My mother was a determinedly non Jewish Jew until she got quite a bit older when she lived abroad and discovered how many of the ostensibly nice and middle class community were anti semitic.

Similarly, whilst not directly experiencing overt antisemitism in the sixties, seventies or eighties, our UK family was well aware of how certain aristocracy and middle class sections of UK society would withhold privileges from Jews.

Viscount Rothermere had made his feelings known 30 years earlier and I'm sure he wasn't unique among the aristocracy and that the same feeling pertained after the war, but just in a less explicit form. Listen to Noel Cowards "Stately homes of England", to hear how Jews were perceived in Rothermere's time.

After the war, at the top end of certain businesses you'd find Jews could be the company accountant, but would struggle to progress beyond that. And of course there were the golf clubs that had suddenly reached their membership capacity when a Jew would want to join. But in reality, in the grand scheme of things, that prejudice and bigotry rarely held Jews back and there was no lack of success amongst companies founded by Jews over the decades. There's a great book called "The Club" documenting the Jewish community in the UK. It's worth a read.

When I was growing up, it was the Bengalis, Pakistanis and Afro-Caribbeans that were on the receiving end of nearly all the overt, mindless, hatred and bigotry, not the Jews.

Of course these are only my and my family's experiences. Jews in other cities and towns might have been having a much harder time towards the end of the last century, but I would have thought we'd have heard about it, had that been the case.

Thank you for starting this thread, I find it a really interesting discussion.

I am not Jewish but my family are (broken matriarchal line), my ancestors lived through the pogroms and gradually travelled across Europe until finally settling in the UK just before WW1 (and tragically some of them stayed in Berlin until the Shoah happened). My Grandparents hid their Jewishness and assimilated into society, we completely lost any Jewish culture and infact my mum only found out her Dad was Jewish when she was 70 years old! I have always felt a strong bond with Jewish people, my paternal grandparents were not Jewish but survived the concentration camps of WW2 and our family has forever felt the shadow cast from it.

I do think the Israel has the right to exist but I don't think that Netanyahu is going about things the right way. The middle east is so complicated, but I do think it's possible to be pro-Israel and also to criticise the current government. I mean in the UK people criticised the government all the time but there is a huge proportion who think it's great despite all the atrocious things the UK has committed (and continues to do).

Sorry for piping in and please ignore if I'm overstepping the mark!

@Mamabear04 ,

Thank you for contributing!

I sometimes feel like an ersatz Jew myself, despite being 100% Ashkenazi Jewish genetically, as I am not religious and only now peripherally a member of the community. you are no more overstepping than I am.

But, we all experienced the Shoah in our families and previous pogroms. One side of my family are some of the oldest Jews in the UK, going back to East Anglia in the 17th century, the other was a more typical rushed expulsion from White Russia (Byelorus as is) in the early 20th century.

Like you, though, although my parents tried assiduously to assimilate, I still have some very ‘Jewish’ memories; challah every Friday, the sound of Yiddish, and relatives in Israel (an aunt of mine moved there).

I was also brought up to take pride in the Jewish intellectual tradition and told how many great scientists, artists and authors were Jewish. The Shoah, aside from being a human tragedy, was almost unique in the cultural damage that was done.

The above is partially why I am struggling with Netanyahu and his cronies. They are the polar opposite of what Judaism means to me. The good thing is that Israel is still a democracy and, hopefully, they will go and a new liberal and tolerant era will come. But the longer they stay, the more damage is done and may become hard to undo.

I get where you're coming from. I've said this under a different username but I've always thought of Israel as a sort of out of control cousin - you hear it mentioned on the news and think oh man, what has it been up to now. I thought that even before the current situation tbh. I definitely agree that Netanyahu is a danger to the country and the region more generally.

However, 7th Oct has made me feel more Jewish and connected to Israel than ever. I'm only half Jewish and in no way religious. I've never even been to Israel. I've had my eyes opened to antisemitism in a way that has been profoundly shocking to me even after the practice run of the Corbyn years. The CITME board makes me sick and I feel more strongly than ever that Israel's existence is so important.

Small derail.but was the cafe on Finchley Road called Cosmo? I also had an older Jewish dad and he used to go there all the time!

@Groovykindofglove ,

‘Small derail.but was the cafe on Finchley Road called Cosmo? I also had an older Jewish dad and he used to go there all the time!’

Yes!

They did a very good Wiener Schnitzel….

@Groovykindofglove

I’ve always thought of Israel as a sort of out of control cousin - you hear it mentioned on the news and think oh man, what has it been up to now

I don’t personally agree with all that you have said but I do love this analogy even if I think differently!! Honestly, that is a great way to look at some other perspective in life also.

Thanks @JaneDoeHere I definitely think this is a board where we can disagree politely ❤️

Its inevitable that Israel is becoming more hard line. It just wouldn't exist if it wasn't. Even the UN has a refugee agency that was involved in the 7th October attack. Israel just cannot be the fluffy Western European country people might want it to be if it wants its citizens to be safe from terror.

@Babycatsarenice ,

‘Its inevitable that Israel is becoming more hard line. It just wouldn't exist if it wasn't. Even the UN has a refugee agency that was involved in the 7th October attack. Israel just cannot be the fluffy Western European country people might want it to be if it wants its citizens to be safe from terror.’

Up to a point I agree.

But, on the other hand, if you end up acting just as badly as the terrorists, they have won. You have no moral advantage.

What is, or isn’t, justified can be endlessly argued, but clearly Israel needed to respond forcefully. Equally, to me, clearly, ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian population is not justified or excusable. People are people and have both legal and moral rights.

I am reserving my final judgment until later, but what Israel is now doing in Gaza scares me.

@Babycatsarenice wrote " Its inevitable that Israel is becoming more hard line. It just wouldn't exist if it wasn't."
I agree that Israel is becoming more hard-line, but she is well past the stage whereby her existence is being threatened. That point was passed decades ago. Take a look at the hardware and manpower that Hamas and Hezbollah can call upon and and then compare that to what Israel has at its disposal. There isn't any way in which they could (even if in an alliance) militarily defeat Israel. That's not to say they couldn't cause harm, but neither present an existential threat, despite what they may claim. Even Iran would be unlikely to defeat Israel in a war. Again, look at the disparity in equipment, and training. Also bear in mind Israel has nuclear weapons. It also has the backing of the US, who would not be prepared to see Israel fail. The only advantage that Iran has over Israel is vastly superior numbers of personnel, though that becomes irrelevant as any war between the two nations would almost certainly not be a ground war.

The current conflict, despite what some people may think, is not a fight for Israel's survival, like it was 51 years ago. Netanyahu is simply using it as an opportunity to inflict as much damage as possible on the terrorists who threaten to harm it, whist at the same time trying to preserve his own political future. The former may be justifiable, however, what makes the current process totally unacceptable is the scale of the destruction, the death and the injury to those Palestinians who have played no part in terrorism.

There are numerous antagonist neighboring countries harbouring enemies, including one Iran with a nuclear project, 1.5m people imprisoned in Gaza growing increasingly desperate and inclined to armed conflict plus previously supportive-ish Western countries seeing vast protests against Israel I would call that an existential threat.
It's so easy to sit here in England. In Israel life is more dangerous.
I do wonder what on earth the long plan was for Gaza as it seems a totally cruel and unstainable prison. The rational for trapping the gazans there was a response to daily terrorist activity in Israel. Does Israel hope Egypt will take them in?

@Babycatsarenice wrote
"There are numerous antagonist neighboring countries harbouring enemies, including one Iran with a nuclear project, 1.5m people imprisoned in Gaza growing increasingly desperate and inclined to armed conflict plus previously supportive-ish Western countries seeing vast protests against Israel I would call that an existential threat."

The west would never allow Israel to fall, it's far too valuable economically and far too important strategically for that to happen.

"I do wonder what on earth the long plan was for Gaza as it seems a totally cruel and unstainable prison. The rational for trapping the gazans there was a response to daily terrorist activity in Israel. Does Israel hope Egypt will take them in?"

One question posed to Israel that has been asked by diplomats and journalists the world over is "What are Israel's plans for Gaza after you have eliminated Hamas?" And in every case there has been no reply. The fact that there is no plan and that the whole thing is being made up as they go along, is another frightening aspect of this tragic mess.

These people ( the Palestinians ) have grievances, and they are justified in having them. Their sorry lot creates anger and the iniquitous leaders that they have, transform that anger into hate.
You cannot effectively deal with the hate, so go back and look at the grievances. Address those. There is so much that Israel can do to reduce them. Give over the west bank, put in place links between Gaza and the West Bank. In return, hostages back and a guarantee of no violent acts. Also get them to confirm that they will respect Israel's 1967 borders. Then start negotiations about how all the people in the region are going to co-exist.

Surely that's better than this.
Anything is better than this.

The west would never allow Israel to fall, it's far too valuable economically and far too important strategically for that to happen

How is Israel valuable economically to the West?

Your plan you set out is admirable but Hamas, Hezbolla etc want the eradication of Israel not changes to the borders.

@Babycatsarenice writted
"How is Israel valuable economically to the West?"

You're right. Nobody needs Israel, we can get avocados from Peru.

Your plan you set out is admirable but Hamas, Hezbolla etc want the eradication of Israel not changes to the borders. Well they're not going to get it, not only because we won't allow it, but also because they don't have the means to achieve it. But the offer to them of something, might interest them enough for them to stop firing rockets.
Surely it's worth a go.