Are many other Jews feeling increasingly conflicted about Israel?

[Newbutoldfather]

Firstly, a bit about myself.

I have always lived in the UK, and no one has been religious in my family since my grandparents, but I am 100% Ashkenazi Jew by descent and grew up in a community which was about 50% Jewish (think a nice area of N London, but not somewhere like Golders Green or Stamford Hill).

I was brought up to think of Israel as a safe and welcoming place for Jews and a small plucky country surrounded by enemies. I was also proudly told that Israel made the desert bloom and it was the only democracy in the middle east (both true at the time). I had quite an old father who saw the end of WW2 as an adult and witnessed the creation of Israel.

I have only visited there once for a couple of months as an older teenager, several decades ago, and had an amazing time being hosted by distant relatives, whom I have sadly lost touch with.

And I have always, and still do, believe in Israel’s right to self defence.

But…..the current government, and especially the religious right, worry me. Smotrich and Ben-Gvir are self avowed racists and show no signs of being reined in by Netanyahu. Western countries have already sanctioned some of the Jewish West Bank leaders and Cameron wanted to sanction Ben-Gvir and Smotrich. The idea of the U.S and the U.K sanctioning Israeli politicians would have been unthinkable 25 years ago. As an Israeli writing to the Times said, it is hard to criticise Iran as a theocracy if Israel is on the way to becoming one….

And what is Israel’s end game vis-a-vis the Palestinians/Palestine? They have definitely not been treating their POWs according to the Geneva convention and Sde Teiman is as much of a blot on the Israeli national conscience as Guantanamo is for the U.S. The recent U.S letter to Israel about not allowing provisions into Northern Gaza is also chilling. And firing on the U.N?!

Yes, Israel was more than sorely provoked by Hamas, and they are in somewhat of an existential struggle with the axis led by Iran, but does that give them carte blanche to do what they want for however long they want?

So, I am very torn. I want to think of Israel as my and my family’s safe place should the need ever arise, but not it becomes an aggressive theocracy. At some point I have to say not in my name, and I am very fast approaching that point (if not over it).

I am curious as to other Jewish views on this.

Really interesting thread OP. I have very similar upbringing to yours. 100% Ashkenazi. Grandparents very frum, but after feeling overwhelmed by the amount of observance they’d grown up with, my parents totally rejected their faith, didn’t celebrate Holidays, keep kosher or keep shabbas. We did live in a very Jewish area though. I worked on a kibbutz in my early 20s. It was my first and last visit to Israel. I didn’t feel a sense of belonging but was glad I had been.

I had never thought of myself as Zionist but felt Israel had the right to exist and after centuries of being turfed out of countries, that it was necessary as a place of safety for us and where we could always go.

Since Oct 7th 23, I have felt far more Zionist then I ever imagined I’d ever feel. I am appalled by the loss of innocent lives and suffering on all sides of this current war, but believe Israel is fighting for its survival and I support that totally. I cannot see what an answer is to bring about peace, as I don’t think a 2 state solution can work. I’m heatbroken at seeing such appalling pain, loss and suffering and hope to goodness that Israel are being honest about Hamas operatives being embedded in hospitals, schools, refugee camps and that they have no other choice but to do what they are doing. It’s the first time in my life I have felt so fiercely defensive about my Jewishness and Israel.

Rory Stewart's (The rest is Politics) descriptions of what's really going on and what is and isn't important are very good. Fascinating stuff. He seems to have insight as to who is tweaking who and why.

Rory Stewart worked for 10 years for the foreign office, spending a lot of time in Iraq and Afghanistan, admires Lawrence of Arabia. Fascinating bloke, incredibly reasonable, massive teeth, I still can't believe he was a Tory.

The first 35 minutes are pretty good.
If you haven't got a life, then the link below is to The Rest is Politics, in which he talks about existential threats.

Just skip through the Alistair Campbell bits, his sources are questionable and on top of that he makes little or no sense.

@mouthpipette ,

Thanks, that was an interesting podcast. Rory Stewart is clearly very knowledgeable though, like everyone, he sees it through the prism of his own experience, which in his case is the aftermath of 9/11.

I was very surprised to hear that Israeli media isn’t covering the destruction of Gaza. I am surprised, to be honest, as they have a free media and plenty of dissenting voices.

I think the nation building comment was interesting. What does Israel have planned for a post Hamas Gaza, if anything?

@Shhhthedogssleeping ,

Your story is very interesting and has many parallels with mine.

My grandparents kind of observed but, on my mother’s side at least, had lost faith, but they made her go to synagogue every Saturday whilst inventing excuses for themselves. She eventually caught them in a very non observant act (eating bacon!) and, after that, they lost all moral suasion.

The area I grew up in was very mixed but, on Jewish holidays, there were no formal lessons, as about 40% of the school didn’t attend. I suspect it has now become less Jewish as it is dominated by money and finance people whereas it used to be more mixed.

I have never felt passionately Zionist in that I have never considered living in Israel and feel more loyal to England than I ever would to Israel, a country I have visited for all of a couple of months. My aunt did live there but she died many years ago and I have lost touch with my other distant relatives there (the aunt had no children).

Having said that, I am Zionist in the meaning that I do strongly believe that Israel has a right to exist and remain Jewish.

I sometimes feel that the Jewish community tries to emotionally blackmail people into unquestioningly supporting Israel and that this is a fundamental part of Jewish heritage. To me, Israel will only deserve my loyalty if it behaves in a way that dignifies the values that I have grown up with: decency, tolerance and curiosity,

Newbutoldfather. Yes there are a lot of similarities in upbringings. My Dad in particular felt he had observance forced upon him and rebelled totally against it. I agree it’s getting harder when I’m with many Jewish friends to even vaguely criticise Israeli govt or any IDF actions. There’s only a few people who I know are also doubtful at times. But overall I’ve never felt more aligned to my Jewish heritage or as defensive of it. My brothers are the same. We are all atheists and always will be, but feel more protective of Jews worldwide and of Israel. For the first time in my life I bought some tiny Magen David earrings, a necklace with my Hebrew name, and have a ceramic Hamsa on my hall wall that a friend bought me from Israel. I never would have imagined myself doing any of this before 7 Oct. It feels necessary to me somehow.

I too have recently felt more defensive about Israel, in that I'll staunchly defend the right for it to remain, but that won’t prevent me criticising its actions when it goes too far.
It's like the kid you love that has gone so badly off the rails. Your crack addicted offspring that lies, steals and appears to have no regard for anyone but themselves. They were never how you intended them to be. You abhor their behaviour, yet your bond with them never breaks and just every now and then you see glimpses of humanity and reason, either of which will reassure you that they're not entirely rotten. That’s why I have incredible admiration for those in Israel who are prepared to disbelieve the propaganda they are being fed (it’s interesting about the Gaza coverage) and question Israel’s actions. Haaretz is a magnificent paper doing an amazing task. In fact, the fact that it’s still allowed to operate is a plus point for Israel.

@Newbutoldfather

This is a really interesting read that might help you make sense of your feelings.

https://isgap.org/book/industry-of-lies-media-academia-and-the-israeli-arab-conflict/

@DuskyBlueDepartingLight

I admit, I haven't read the book (waiting for the netflix) but the review / description on the website you linked to, made interesting reading.

He's bringing into light the problems Israel faces from being demonised by propaganda put out by its adversaries..

He states
"When almost half of all Europeans believe that Israel treats the Palestinians just like the Nazis treated the Jews,..... lies are winning "

That's a frightening thing to hear. First of all, that such a high proportion believe it, is worrying. Though with the inclusion of Eastern Europe, (which generally has a lower tolerance of Jews than other regions) one can start to see how that figure may be achieved. Even so, if his data is correct, then it is disturbing, for a number of reasons.
Anyone making that comparison illustrates an abject lack of knowledge and understanding of both the Holocaust and what is happening today. There is not the specific round up, incarceration, labour camps and death camps. Not only is it inaccurate, it's lazy and disrespectful.

Lazy, in that one suddenly has a pigeon whole in which to place this conflict, a category by which to see it or understand it. There are few, possibly no, useful comparisons to be made from equating the Nazis to Israel.

And the main thing about it is.... it is highly offensive. It diminishes the suffering of Jews at the hands of Hitler. Possibly the person who is saying it, is doing so because they know that it will needle Jews and they are being antisemitic. But, we have already established that the comparison is made by someone who is ignorant, so does it matter that much ?
The frightening part is the statistic of around 50%. I dearly hope that his methodology is absolute shite and that far, far fewer people actually believe that.

Tell you what, it'd make a good AIBU, my guess is 8% of those on here would believe it.

What's your guess ?

Mind you, if the Israelis got their bots onto it, it'd probably be around 80 %

It would also make an interesting study to discover why people believe the Israel / Nazis comparison ? What have they heard? And from where?

We can all make educated guesses as to their sources, but it would be fascinating to find out the truth.

I have no idea where is the best source to find the least unbiased news reporting? Any suggestions?

Loads of sources and then do your sifting.
You can pretty much tell where a news outlet is "coming from" in the first 5 minutes.
The best on the left is Novara Media, the best on the right is Julia Hartley Brewer on ... something or other.
You'll find the BBC and channel 4 are in between and haven't been doing too badly.... considering.

Thanks mouthpipette, I have no idea who is least biased at present.

Definitely not Novara Media of "I'm literally a communist" fame 😳

You can pretty much tell where a news outlet is "coming from" in the first 5 minutes.
Novara Media as in Rivkah "October 7th is a day of celebration" Brown? Anyone need a recommendation for the best Jewish organisations? I hear JVL and JVP are both great for objective representation, opinion and activism.

I have more to say later but I would recommend Haaretz.

Haaretz is excellent, I've been reading Gideon Levy for over a decade.

Haaretz used to be a respectable source but has been going downhill since the 90s.

It's now a fringe outfit & its share of readers in Israel has dropped significantly in line with the above.

I'd say it's most quoted generally & on MN by people with anti Israel positions.

There's no one reliable source on ANY issue. Reading widely, critically appraising what you've read & who has written it (& why) is generally the safest bet.

It takes a great deal of knowledge to understand the history of Israel & it's current war. It's a real shame no UK news outlet is informing the population & providing the sufficient context. This is a conscious political choice.

You might find Konstantin Kisin interesting:

@Shhhthedogssleeping ,

‘I have no idea where is the best source to find the least unbiased news reporting? Any suggestions?’

This is a massive problem and ‘reading widely’ is much more easily said than done.

Media is becoming so polarised at the moment that you tend to get one side of the argument or the other in very emotive terms. So you either hear about the heroic IDF and Israel’s ‘existential struggle’, or about the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians and Israel’s plan to annexe Gaza.

It doesn’t help that Israel has banned the press from all combat zones and also seems to be targeting U.N positions, very unusual in modern warfare.

I think the WSJ is the source I believe the most (and happen to subscribe to for other reasons). If they have a bias, it is moderately Pro Israel, but they are also unafraid to criticise some of her actions and ask difficult questions.

@DuskyBlueDepartingLight ,

I am not overly impressed with Konstantin Kissin on this one.

He is handpicking analogies to make his case and claiming the answer is obvious. The whole video is one long example of confirmation bias, yet he claims he has derived a solution from first principles, as if it were a Maths problem.

For me, he falls down on his very first analogy. I definitely wouldn’t accept the Americans turning all of Mexico to rubble and displacing the entire Mexican population in the unlikely event of Mexicans crossing the border and murdering 36,000 Americans.

And, if we apply his ‘brilliant’ first principle of proportion of the population killed, the U.S would be killing about 2.5 million Mexicans!

@Newbutoldfather
You ........., ! I was half way through writing something pretty much along the same lines and you beat me to it. However you were (slightly) more eloquent than I would have been.
I've come across him before and that clip didn't do anything to improve my estimation of his opinions..
As you said, 3 mins in and he's drawing an analogy between Mexico and Hamas. What on earth was that all about ?

@DuskyBlueDepartingLight
It's a real shame no UK news outlet is informing the population & providing the sufficient context. This is a conscious political choice.

I would question that.

Radio 4 covers the current war in detail. There was the superb series "The Mandate" that provided context for what we have today and on TV and radio, numerous platforms are currently being given to speakers from all sides of the conflict. In addition, new programmes are regularly being squeezed into the R4 schedule to specifically discuss whats going on in the middle east.

Rather than it being a case of us not being informed, might it be that you just don't approve of the information that we are being given ?

Just out of interest, who do you believe is making and enforcing this "Conscious political choice" ?

My complaint is about the OMISSION of important information, as was clearly stated.

Neither did I directly reference you.

@mouthpipette

Here's a link to the Asserson report:

https://asserson.co.uk/assersonreport/

@DuskyBlueDepartingLight wrote
"My complaint is about the OMISSION of important information, as was clearly stated.

Please tell me what important information is being omitted.

Neither did I directly reference you. "@mouthpipette "

Sorry for speaking before being spoken to.
**
Here's a link to the Asserson report:"
Looking at the data they've collected, it seems that of the hundreds of publishers that have neither an Islamic nor Jewish affiliation, by far the majority are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. These include; The Times, Bloomberg, CNN, Washington Post, Sky, Reuters, France24 and The Bicester Advertiser. The BBC is just another one amongst them. Have all those, and the hundreds of other outlets sympathetic to the Palestinians, simply got it wrong?

I'm reminded of the proud parents who were watching their army son march in the parade.
"Don't our Albert look grand with his marching? It's a shame all the others are out of step"

Haaretz is still a respectable source. It's lost market share because of the rightward shift in Israel and also because of the newspaper wars (Israel Hayom being distributed for free hurt the other papers). They absolutely cover the region in far more detail than any other non-Israeli paper. And I'm no far leftist, IJV type.

What's always missing in European coverage of Gaza is this- the blockade of Gaza started 2007 to stop the very high levels of Palestinian suicide bombings in Israel. Israel hasn't locked up the people of Gaza for fun.
Check out how many fewer attacks there were after they blockaded area ans restricted the flow of people in 2007.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
Just look at the numbers of bombs
It's biased to omit this information