5th failed embryo transfer 😣

[Nk11]

Losing the will over here…not much to ask just somewhere to vent. Anyone with a similar story because every post I see seem to have something better to tell or at least some sign pregnancy can occur!

1st round - day 3 transfer failed
day 6 FET medicated failed

2nd round - 10 embryos (all excellent to great grading)
1st medicated FET - ICSI blast failed
2nd medicated FET - IVF blast failed
3rd natural double FET - both IVF blasts failed

All failed to implant at all. Honestly don’t know what route to go down next. Have 6 remaining ICSI blasts all untested. Differing opinions on whether to test them at this stage. Nothing that flags up for myself ultrasounds look good my body does as it should with cycles and lining etc. Not recommended for further testing so if I want anything I’m going to have to do all the legwork to find somewhere that will do it. We had male factor, but at last round his sample was normal parameters so ? whether this is still the case. I am 32 and partner 34 so age is on our side but doesn’t seem to be prevailing. Just kind of at a dead end at the moment.

@Nk11 so sorry to hear this! I had 4 failed FETs with euploid embryos before we had any success and never had a positive test in those 4 attempts. Just wondering if you have considered an ERA? I had it done and it showed I was on the correct amount of progesterone so it didn’t make any difference to my subsequent cycle but it was good for me to rule it out. We used embryo glue on my successful transfer (currently 10 weeks pregnant 🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻) as well as 75mg aspirin and 15mg prednisolone from 3dpt. The aspirin is mentioned in repeat implantation failure guidelines and we tried the prednisolone in case there were any minor immune responses that I was having on the previous 4. Not my clinic but this guide from IV Alicante is worth a look: https://www.institutobernabeucloud.com/doc/en/packs/dossier-rif-en.pdf

I had thromophilia bloods and karotyping
done to see if we could find any issues but nothing ever showed up. It’s such a frustrating place to be in but maybe a consult with another clinic might offer a new approach? Also assisted hatching may be worth a try (small hole made in outer part of the embryo to try to help implantation). If you get testing done I think this counts as assisted hatching as such. I’ve seen other things such as HCG washes mentioned too but I have no experience of those.

@Hopefulsummer35 thank you and congratulations you must have been over the moon when it has finally worked. Did you have any feeling that this one would work? I really struggle to feel optimistic every time. I just want a different outcome to implantation failure 😞
I’ve had blood thinner injections for the past 3 transfers. I’ve had my progesterone levels checked on the last transfer they were good, and I paid extra for embryo glue. The only thing I can think to do is have a Hycosy because I’ve never had my tubes checked, but I suppose I have nothing that would indicate a problem, and a hysteroscopy just to check that my lining is actually looking ok in colour not just on an ultrasound. Beyond that I don’t know. I assume you never had any real reason as to why your first 4 euploid embryos failed? I just feel like I’m going crazy to keep having transfers and expecting a result to change.

@Nk11 it’s such a difficult place to be in as my clinic could never offer a reason to explain why the others hadn’t worked. We were actually looking at going abroad for treatment so we had kind of written off our last embryo but our clinic offered to do the last transfer for free (as we had spent so much money with them and had nothing to show for it), so really
we just used it for the sake of it as we had our flights booked for a new clinic abroad. I did 3
medicated fets and one natural modified for our 4 failed transfers and for the successful one I was on much higher doses of medication than previously so I’m not sure what made the difference (2 forms of oestrogen, 2 forms of progesterone, steroid, aspirin). It is great that you have lots more embryos banked. My clinic very annoyingly said to me after my 4th fail that I should have had at least two pregnancies by that stage but couldn’t offer any reasons why it wasn’t working so I totally understand the frustration and sadness that comes with each failed attempt. All we were
used to was failure. Keep going if and when you can and maybe a second opinion from another clinic would be beneficial.

@Hopefulsummer35 thank you so much for sharing this with me I am so happy yours has finally worked and all the best with everything. I really hope this does happen for me. I really think I will need to test these embryos although there are cons for doing it risking them etc I just can’t go through another transfer without knowing it is at least euploid. I’m terrified either none will be, or all will be and then there’s still no answer but I guess there is always hope that one will work eventually.

I assume you had your embryos tested before freezing was there a reason you had them tested? I know they say not necessary before age 35 (I was 31 when they were made) but 4/10 tried from this batch have not done a thing. my fiance is so optimistic says we have loads of time but I just can’t imagine spending the next 10 years in this situation.

@Nk11 hey 👋🏼 ,
sometimes all you need is a place to vent and feel heard and sometimes validated when your having a hard time. Your doing so well to have had 5 transfers, shows your strength ❤️

my experience isn't the same, I have had one failed FET, but I am with IVF Alicante (they put me on prednisone, aspirin and clexane.. blood thinner injections) and we only have 1 embryo left. After the last one failed they suggested getting my lining checked (doing a medicated mock month) to check how receptive my lining is at 21 days.. as some women aren’t most receptive on day 21. We couldn’t afford it, so we are going for our next FET. But that could be something to ask you clinic about?

I did have a hycosi last year, as our infertility was unexplained and they found I had 2 hydrosalpinx, where both tubes are blocked and liquid fills up in your tubes, but not 💯 closed.. still open a little, and the liquid is toxic to embryos 😞 ) which was never picked up on any scans before and I had no symptoms. They wouldn’t go ahead with IVF until I had my tubes removed. Just saying it’s worth doing the extra check to put your mind at rest and rule everything out. it is really quite common and hard to pick up with normal scans.

i had the laproscopy in December and now we are having our 2nd FET this week. Fingers crossed 🤞🏼 You totally have age on your side! Be kind to yourself, it’s an emotional rollercoaster ride isn’t it?! Its up to you, but I would keep going and maybe a good idea to check all the embryos. IVF Alicante recommended that for us, but it was too much on top of the fees. There’s always a chance that all the rest are fine and it was unfortunate that the ones you already transferred had some genetic faults that stopped them sticking. Be kind to yourself 💞

@Indigopantha Hi, thank you so much. I don't feel strong I feel like everyone thinks I'm crazy for keeping going back and I spend a lot of the time feeling sad and frustrated. I don't feel like I can be happy until I achieve this.

We had looked at IVF in Alicante but it was at the Instituto Bernabeu is that the same clinic? We had a consultation with them before this last transfer and they very much said if they aren't tested embryos you really just never know and recommended I just had more transfers and one would probably work. Easier said than done. Interesting about the lining check as at that clinic they said they don't believe in it so don't offer it so I am assuming they are not the same clinic.

Do you mind if I ask about the Hycosy, so I have provisionally booked for having one when my next cycle arrives because I want to rule it out, but it has never been recommended to me because they say I haven't had any pregnancy, any ectopic or any STI so there would be no reason I would have the toxic fluid. If it's not too personal to answer was there anything that may have caused you to have the hydrosalpinx? I don't know if I am just clutching but I will spend the £600 for the test if it at least gives me some reassurance. Did you then have the laparoscopy for this reason?

The only other thing I thought was to have a hysteroscopy to check if my lining was visibly clear because I understand although the ultrasounds look great 'beautiful tripple lining' is all I seem to hear which is rather sickening when nothing sticks to it. Sometimes they might not show the true picture? Though I don't know if there is anything that can be conclusively done to change it. Just wondered about whether I could have silent endometriosis. I don't seem to get any guidance from anyone.

Thank you and I wish you all the luck for your next transfer x

Hi @Nk11, just wanted to reply and say you are not alone. I am in a similar position, about to do my fourth transfer with no success as of yet. I have two hydrosalpinx like a previous poster but no one is prepared to do surgery on me as I have Crohn’s disease and they deem it too high risk so the clinic have said the best approach is just to keep trying and eventually one should stick. It is so mentally draining though. The first two transfers I felt reasonably optimistic but the third one I just felt so negative about. I already knew it wasn’t going to work and I feel the same way about this next one. It just feels like how is it ever going to work when we just do the same thing over and over again!!

@clazbear I’m so sorry to hear that. Fully get that like when you go in for transfer I am literally void of all emotion because they want me to be optimistic but I feel like it’s impossible at this stage. Can I ask did you have symptoms or were there reasons you might have had hydrosalpinx? Did you have any other investigations? I wonder how they can think one might just work if they know that’s going to be an issue. Have you tried asking clinics abroad possibly?

Hi @Nk11, it’s so hard to be optimistic isn’t it when literally nothing is different from any other time. I also find it really hard that they are all so happy and smiley and wishing me luck, at this stage I think I’d rather someone was just realistic about it!!

The hydrosapinxes are most likely from previous surgeries (for the Crohn’s) I think. I had no symptoms, they just spotted them on a routine ultrasound. All other tests I’ve had they are telling me are normal but to be honest, I don’t think I’ve had many tests, everything I suggest they say not to do. I did ask about a hycosy, but they refused and said it will push the toxic fluid up into the ovary which is not good (almost the complete opposite to what you’ve been told!)

This next transfer will be our last embryo with nhs funding so I think we will then look at possibly going abroad. Someone today actually has told me to look into somewhere called the Zlin clinic in Czech Republic which looks somewhere for us to consider. From everything I read though, it seems like the investigations/treatment plans will be so much better abroad! Do you think you will try abroad?

@Nk11 , the hydrosalpinges were caused by recurring urinary and kidney infections that I had when I was a child and again when I was in my 20’s. But I never would have known otherwise. I had lots of other tests and numerous scans leading up to this point.

the hycosy was very uncomfortable and I would recommend having a pain killer before, if you decide to go ahead with it. We were with IVF LIFE Alicante, so a different clinic

I would definitely recommend the hysteroscopy, after 4 failed transfers I had a hysteroscopy and they found my lining was all red and inflamed, took a biopsy and I had infection of the womb lining meaning my embryos never had a chance of implanting. Had antibiotics and probiotics (read into the uterine/vaginal microbiome and the tests you can have to tell you how healthy yours is, it's actually really important) to restore my microbiome to a healthy state and get rid of the inflammation/infection and I now have a 6 week old daughter from 5th transfer. Womb lining infections can't be seen on ultrasound, my UK clinic said it was an unnecessary test because my scans looked normal but when we went to institut marques in Barcelona it was the first thing they tested and they found it/fixed it. In my experience UK clinics often say no further testing needed when it absolutely is needed because if 5 transfers have failed something is wrong.

Just wanted to add that my clinic put you on a preventative course of antibiotics for 10 days before transfer to rule out endometritis which is different to endometriosis. I wonder if you have used an antibiotic pre transfer before?

@Smurf1993 hi thank you for this it’s really helpful. I’ve spoken to instituto bernabeu in Alicante that said they would do a hysteroscopy for me but did say it wasn’t really necessary. Did you have full treatment in Spain? I think this there has to be something wrong somewhere down the line because every embryo I have transferred it’s like my body doesn’t even recognise anything happened.

I’ve booked in for a hycosy next week at Manchester fertility (not my clinic but they said they can do this without a consultation). I’m waiting for my follow up consultation with my clinic and I’ll ask about a hysteroscopy and I also want my embryos testing as I’ve got 6 left still but it’s definitely a lot more expensive over here.

@Hopefulsummer35 so before my 4th transfer I had done a vaginal microbiome test which came back and said I had higher levels of urea plasma which I told my clinic about who basically said doesn’t mean anything. So two weeks before I had that transfer I took a 7 day course of doxycycline unauthorised to see if it would help and of course nothing happened.

@Smurf1993 and also thank you for coming back I know not many would stay on here once you get your baby. Glad everything finally worked out for you can only hope that happens for me too x

Honestly I know the depths of despair I felt when going through IVF and it breaks my heart knowing others are still feeling it, I really want to help people going through it because I had to find a lot of my own answers and don't think clinics help people enough.

I had full treatment in Spain, the standard of care was incredibly compared to the way I was treated in the UK, it was also cheaper. It's awkward with travelling but its a much better experience.

The microbiome is important according to a lot of research, favourable microbiomes can predict IVF success but a lot of clinics don't buy into it because the research is new. My microbiome was mainly ureaplasma and no lactobacilli when IVF kept failing, to correct I had Doxycycline and azithrocmycin which is specific to ureaplasma (doxy isn't enough on its own usually) and took lactobacilli probiotics at the same time. It's no good killing the bad bacteria without encouraging the good or the bad will just regrow, you need probiotics to reset the balance. Lactobacilli protect you from the overgrowth of harmful bacteria. You can buy vaginal probiotics from boots. A retest after a month of treatment showed that my bicrobiome had shifted to 80% lactobacilli and the ureaplasma was gone. That's the cycle I was successful!

I'm a microbiologist and I really believe microbiomes are far more important than clinics make out as there is new research emerging constantly about how it affects fertility, gut health and all sorts of health conditions! Unfortunately it's something you have to really push for and manage yourself, the UK clinics especially won't do anything about it but the Spanish clinic agreed with me and treated the microbiome. Obviously I'm not a doctor or fertility expert so it's not guaranteed advice but I spent a lot of time researching for myself as the clinic was so unhelpful.

I really hope you get your baby soon xx

@Smurf1993 Wow this is a super interesting thread. I am working on my microbiome at the moment for diet reasons but I had no idea that it could have such a big impact on fertility.

@Nk11 NK11 good luck next week with the hycosy, check with the clinic if they want you to have a full bladder, mine didn’t specifically say and I didn’t ( apparently it can make it easier for them to do the procedure.. changes the angle or something) the good thing is it doesn’t last too long and if we don’t do it we would never have known.

keeping my fingers crossed for you getting some answers and also good results on your embryo tests.

@Indigopantha Hi just had the hycosy quite painful but needs must. Good news all clear tubes and I’d told them I’d had so many failures so they did a saline scan on my whole uterus too and said my lining was very smooth no signs of anything that would prevent implantation. So it is good news it does make me feel hopeful that I can do it, maybe I just need the right embryo. Just annoyingly still waiting for my clinic to give me a follow up consultation.

Did you say you were having another transfer around now?

@Nk11 thars really great news! It Must feel like such a relief to know. Well done for getting it out the way!

Yes your right, I had a transfer last week, so I am 6dp5dt but so far all tests are negative.. 😔 so I’m preparing myself for that being the most likely result on my OTD next Monday.

that was our last embryo from our first round, so we will have to start all over again. We have 1 more round. I’m thinking of looking into uterine microbiota to see if I can improve it without having to do the tests, as they seem to be very expensive. I’m not sure if they will do that kind of test on the NHS, and researching the hysteroscopy. I’m thinking of what we can check for or do to see what will give us better chances for our last round.

I’m just wondering if I can get hold of Doxycycline and azithrocmycin from my clinic as a preventative without having to do the tests? I did a little research and I think I can buy uterine probiotics online easily. If anyone could recommend a brand that would be really helpful 🙏🏽

@Indigopantha i did a test from Daye for vaginal microbiome that came back 67% lactobacillus and more than normal ureaplasma. I told my clinic they weren’t interested tbh but I went to an online pharmacy just said I needed treatment for chlamydia and I bought 7 day course of doxycycline for both me and my fiance. I’ve had 2 transfers since no luck but I’m thinking whether to just do the EMMA ALICE tests now to see if that shows anything up whilst also testing the embryos. It’s going to cost me a fortune as none of this going forward will now be nhs funded but I can’t really cope with more transfers for the sake of two more being funded. Have you had those done?

@Indigopantha Just seen Daye has 15% off their tests at the moment too

@Nk11 Thanks for the advice, just had a look at the Daye offers, I might wait until we have a definite negative next week and do the same thing, get the test from daye and see what my percentage is of microbiome. I’m thinking that after my salpingectomy and having antibiotics that I will need probiotics. im going to start ordering everything so we can get ready for our last round. Did another test 7dp5dt and BFN, so I will just do one more test on my OTD but I’m sure I’m negative this time.

if you can afford it, I think embryo testing along with the Emma/ Alice is a good idea..

@Indigopantha gosh yes sorry I totally neglected the fact you are mid cycle. Really sorry to hear that it’s so awful putting everything on hold and then it to not work. Hopefully it still has but I know how you feel. I need to look at the vaginal probiotics too. I take bettervits probiotic daily.

hi all, I’ve got my 5th FET on Tuesday and I panicked I left it late for sorting my microbiome out. I did a metrdrozole vaginal gel at the start of Feb so a month ago and I’ve been on oral probiotics for months and then vaginal probiotics for the last couple of weeks now to try and build the good back up. I’ve had no signs of infections but I did get thrush in my last FET which we lost at 10 weeks. I’m going to take 100mg of doxycycline twice a day for the next 3 days leading up to transfer. I wish I’d done all this stuff in December and January but I was just putting it all to the back of my mind :( I’ve also been using the balance activ gel because o read that it helps with the PH and the good bacteria to restore. I mean there isn’t anything more I can do now but I’m paranoid thinking I have chronic endometrtis and bad bacteria that I haven’t sorted out. I did take a bath with my son and he ended up with a UTI and it was proteus mirabelis and that’s what’s seen in bad bacteria so I’m extra worried. That was the day I finished my vaginal metrdrozole gel. Is it because I didn’t have any of the good lacto left?!

Then I’m stressing that BV can be asymptomatic. :( basically just having a meltdown as FET approaches and nothing I can do and too late for testing x