Failed ICSI cycle 1 - Too soon to move to round 2?

[NotLateInTheMorning]

Hi there,

OTD today but I knew 5 days ago when I started my period that our ICSI cycle had failed. It was NHS funded and the next available date to discuss the outcome is not until October!!!

I am going to turn 38 so have decided to make a clean break and go with a private clinic - ideally starting treatment when my next period starts.

If you have had more than one ICSI cycle - how did you decide when/where to have the second cycle?

I feel focused and ready. Of course, I am sad and upset but my over-riding feeling is that I have left it too late as it is and I want to steer ahead quickly. Work-wise the summer is also a good time for me.

I am thinking of going with CARE and on their website they currently have 0 days waiting time. They have an open day in a couple of weeks but I just want to call now and book a consultation.

Is it too soon?

Sorry that your recent cycle hasn't worked out, October is a ridiculously long wait for a follow up. I don't know why they can't just allocate time for follow ups considering they know the percentage successful outcomes.

My first recommendation is ask your clinic for a copy of your notes. You will usually have to pay for this, it's good to get the ball rolling and bring the notes with you to any private consultation as it will give information about how you responded to the drugs.

As to whether it's too soon that is up to you and your partner to decide on the emotional side, and the clinic to advise if they want you to wait a cycle. My last clinic were prepared to let me stim again the 2nd period after the failed IVF one, but possibly might have let me start sooner of I'd been able to get a follow up sooner.

I recognise the frustration and feeling of having left it too late (I'm a tad older than you) but in the scheme of things a month or 2 of you have to wait will be manageable. Good luck.

Hi @NotLateInTheMorning

I failed my first nhs ICSI cycle and had one normal period post ivf bleed and then started day 21 of the next cycle with downreg.

However our clinic were excellent - I had my debrief the day after my OTD! (Bled early like you) then they organised DNA fragmentation, we saw them for the results a month later and started injections again a couple of weeks after that. I'm now 9+6 weeks pregnant so the second cycle worked.

If you're moving clinic I'd def get your notes - we learnt a lot from our first cycle and made changes that worked!

I completely understand on the not wasting time - I'm 32 but have high FSH so there was no way I was waiting any longer than I needed.

Good luck!

X

thanks @JeNeBaguetteRien - great advice re: obtaining a copy of my notes. I've e-mailed the clinic and hope they can get them to me earlier than October!

You're right in the grand scheme of things 2 months is not a huge amount of time and I should use the first cycle as a learning curve. I wish you the very best too x

@hoping2018 - Congratulations! that is fabulous ;) enjoy your pregnancy x your clinic sound super efficient too!

Today was the first official BFN day - I'm telling myself it can only get better from here - FX

NotLate my first cycle was abandoned before egg collection and my second cycle I bled before test date too. It was so shit as I'd booked that day off work, I had thought the progesterone would hold off my period even if BFN.

I was generally unimpressed with my clinic and am moving for my next attempt, but they were relatively quick at getting my notes, they warned it could take up to 4 weeks but did it in 2.
I had to fill in a form and pay an invoice. If your clinic drag their heels on that contact PALS.

Your last sentence is true. I think the crappiness of it doesn't go away but my goodness the rawness does. The first few days I was just bursting into tears a lot, better out than in I think. But now I'm just so keen to start a new cycle, however I'm waiting due to wanting to try DHEA. I have low AMH and willing to try anything to boost my eggs.

Our first ivf icsi cycle failed in May, our clinic gave us an immediate consultation and we discussed next steps. They advised not to start until I had a proper AF after the AF of failed cycle. They said it was our choice and would go with what we decided but that was their recommendation. The reason behind it was that they wanted to give my ovaries time to recover and my hormones to normalize.

We agreed with them and also decided to start our 90 day egg cycle first so our next round is in September

@JeNeBaguetteRien - It is difficult to decide whether to stay at a clinic or move, but I think if you feel unimpressed, it is probably best to cut ties. Of course, there are never any guarantees, but being happy with clinic helps in trying to keep in the positive lane.

I've started reading up on DHEA - we have MF issues but to be honest, my egg quality isn't brilliant either...I hope it works for you xx

Thanks for sharing your experience @AniSL - I see the sense in allowing the ovaries to recover - they sure have to go through the mill. It is good the clinic gave you the information and let you decided xx My natural bleed will be in August and then I will also try in September.

I was on a short protocol last time, so no downregs... My follies responded to the stimms so I reckon I will try and stick with it

Day 2 post BNF - I feel less desperate to jump in all toes first xox

JeNe I agree with OP, this ride is hard enough, having a shittu feeling about your clinic is counterproductive.

We are staying with ours because they are fab and have been from the start.

I can't figure out my dates for next cycle as AF is now 2 weeks late, I know this is the side effect of all the meds. I am focussing on my 90 day cycle now so I can get the best chance when it comes around.

We have also decided frozen egg transfer rather than fresh (if they are suitable to freeze) because of the success rates

After two unsuccessful cycles with the minimum one cycle (I‘m the same age as you so also didn’t want to wait around) between them I was advised to take three months off to improve egg quality. In the next cycle, the fertilisation rate was three times higher, and I got a bfp and some good quality frozen embryos (first time there was anything to freeze). Of course it was a different protocol each time so no idea what actually made the difference.

thanks @AniSL - I also saw figures that FET success rates are better than fresh cycle - hoping next time around we have the option, last cycle we didn't have any...

thanks for sharing your experience @DameSylvieKrin - congratulations on your bpf!!! have a wonderful pregnancy and journey ahead...positive stories are so wonderful to hear xoxox

@NotLate yes they are if you have embies to freeze, I hope we get some this time round. My clinic explained that the conditions that the uterine lining is left in after all the meds is not ideal for implantation, thats why they prefer frozen as it alloes your body to normalise. It also has less miscarriage and birth defects and abnornalities.

@AniSL - sounds like you're onto a winner with your clinic. I always felt a bit rushed at mine. Hoping the next one will be different.

Your AF is late and mine came 5 days earlier than the OTD!

FX you get some frosties xx we didn't last time...so here's hoping we get some of decent enough quality too x

It may take you longer than 2 mths with a new clinic - many make you do all the tests again.

We didnt get any frosties either so are hoping to get some. Clinic has amended my protocol this time to increase the Gonal slightly. They also advised me about what I can change during the 90 day egg development cycle to help, though the eggs they got last time were grade A, there just weren't enough of them.
We started our journey on the NHS with all the testing but didnt meet the criteria as I was 35 when referred. So we took our results to Greece and they were happy for me to start the cycle as soon as my next AF. They did the additional tests when we got to the clinic. I love my clinic for telling me that 37 is not old in fertility years.

Thanks for the heads up @DuchyDuke - I am going with Care in Birmingham, it is fairly new (opened a couple of years back) and currently says they have 0 days waiting time - so here's hoping they are not busy. I was on short protocol so hopefully a couple months is enough for my ovaries to rest...

@AniSL - that sounds like a fab clinic ;) I am not sure I am brave enough to go abroad again (I did try a few years ago when i was working abroad but had a really awful experience...I wasn't best prepared, tbh)
If you don't mind me asking what advice did the clinic give you about what you could change during the 90 day egg development cycle?
Our embryo's were pretty ropy - 7 mature eggs but only 2 fertilised and the embryo's were transferred on day 2 because they were not looking especially strong...

I am hoping to get more information from our clinic but my follow-up appointment is mid October!!

It took me 6 months to get all my tests done with Care. They insisted on a lot - hsg, transvag scan, hiv, rubella antibodies, a trial on clomid and metformin etc. Maybe Birmingham will be different but suggest you pay for them all in the clinic to make it go faster as the NHS will take ages.

@NotLate mine was similar, 6 eggs, 4 mature, 2 fertilized. At day 3 both were grade A 8/7 cell split, neither made it to day 5. The good thing was that because it was a failed cycle at blastocyst stage, we didnt have to pay the full cost of treatment, the remaining amount was to he paid at transfer. We have saved it for next round.

So its the same advice as what you will find on here, no alcohol, at least 2 litres of water a day, light exercise, they recommended inositol, ubiquinol and melatonin for me. I had used these on previous cycle too. I know many say DHEA is good for those who have poor egg quality, they said not to take it for me because of the mild pcos.
I am also following a loose version of the natural fertility plan.
Sorry to hear about your experience overseas. We did a lot of research before we chose ours and also spoke to many couples who had been there too so we knew what to expect.

I had a really positive experience with Care in Birmingham although my consultant has now left. Even if you called them today I can’t imagine you’d start a cycle for a couple of months whilst they review and run tests. They are pretty thorough.

I didn’t end up having a cycle with them as I got a bfp just before, but due to the tests I’d had with them, the pregnancy stuck as I was on the correct drug protocol the day after the positive tests.

Are you taking CoQ10 and eating plenty of protein? I did this before my second cycle and got double the no of embryos and all top quality compared with the first.

What is your DH doing to improve sperm quality? I think that might also need to be your focus for the next 90 days.

When were all your last tests done?

@DuchyDuke - thanks. all my common sense seems to have gone out the window - when I saw 0 days wait on their website I presumed I'd just walk into treatment...good to be bought back down to earth...

@AniSL - thanks for the advice, hoping that more I am seeing/hearing, the more likely I am to stick to it more precisely.

I have been in the system for a long time - since 2012, so some of the tests were done then through the NHS. Probably best to get everything done again at one clinic.

@ShottaSheriff - congratulations on your BPF!! super fantastic to get pregnant before the cycle starts!! all the very best for you and your little one...

good to hear that CARE are thorough and you had a positive experience with the Bham facility...I've signed up for their patient info event next week and will take it from there

I am trying to eat lots of protein but have not taken CoQ10 - I'm going to order some now, just before the end of my lunch break!

And yes, totally agree DH needs to work on his sperm - he has taken the failed cycle pretty badly - thinks it is his fault...so he will be willing to try anything

Hope everyone is enjoying the lovely weather (while Rome falls, or so it seems) everything just feels crazy at the moment both in my own little life and the world...

@NotLate buy Ubiquinol not coq10, Ubiquinol is the purer more easily absorbed form

@notlateinthemorning I also forgot to mention Glutathianone supplement too, its an important one

thanks @AniSL - I ordered the Ubiquinol. I was reading about male infertility (my DH has low morphology and varicocele) and coq10 seems to be good for sperm quality too - so we will share it.

I've not come across Glutathianone - is that to improve egg quality too? xx

Hiya

U r welcome. I havr not seen it mentioned anywhere on the boards either when it comes to fertility supplements.

Ok so I was told about it from my clinic, Glutathione occurs naturally in the body. Its the master antioxidant, basically the main dude.

Every cell on our body uses it to get rid of toxins and all the nasties.

So in terms of fertility:

Glutathione is important for both male and female fertility. It can improve sperm health and quality. When it comes to the women’s ovaries, glutathione has an important role to play. Our eggs develop slowly and gradually in a process known as folliculogenesis over a period of many months before ovulation occurs. During this process, the many cells surrounding the egg, known collectively as the follicle, replicate. Each one of these tiny cells requires glutathione to shield it from damage. As such, the egg quality is dependent on glutathione – one of the ovary’s main protectors.
In fact, research has shown that oocytes with higher levels of intracellular glutathione produce healthier, stronger embryos. Other research has shown that in our younger years, women’s ovaries actually have higher intracellular glutathione levels. As such, increasing our glutathione can potentially turn back the ovarian “clock”. Research has shown that glutathione deficiency is related to premature ovarian aging and even ovarian cancer. Another study found that for women undergoing IVF, higher levels of glutathione in a woman’s follicles translated into increased fertilization rates.

If you buy some, make sure you buy the liposomal as thats the one your body will absorb rather than break it down

Gosh @AniSL - that is pretty impressive!! I do lots of very unfocused reading very late at night and can never seem to remember anything useful in the morning!

Really appreciate you taking the time. Where did you buy the liposomal from?

thanks xox

U r most welcome. I bought mine from eBay