No foetal pain before 24 weeks so OK to abort....?

[StableButDeluded]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/10403496.stm

I'm a bit about this. Just because they supposedly can't feel pain still doesn't necessarily make it OK. It just doesn't sit right with me that doctors can be aborting a baby of 24 weeks in one part of a hospital and saving the life of another baby that was born at 24 weeks in another.

I still think that with all the medical advances that now enable premature babies of this age to survive, the abortion time limit should be lowered, apart from in exceptional circumstances. Pain or no pain.

Try again:

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/10403496.stm

It is a woman's right to choose - and if this lessens some of the emotive guilt-inducing pressure on her, then good.

I'm glad to see a rational and balanced review by the The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists on this.
The abortion limit should stay as it is.

It's not "a baby" it's a foetus.

That's a very important distinction Coolfonz. The phrase 'unborn baby' is needlessly emotive, and used (IME) by people who are anti-abortion and want to upset anyone who is considering or has ever considered abortion. It's as if a vegetarian described your roast as 'ickle fluffy baby lamb'.

I don't understand the connection between feeling pain or not feeling pain and it being okay to abort.

If an abortion is necessary then shouldn't the debate about feeling pain or not be related to whether or not to administer pain relief prior to the abortion.

It's not the lack of pain that makes it ok to abort - it's the law.

You can be all you like, but it's legal.

As others have said, in the eyes of the law, it is not an "unborn baby" - your emotions don't count I'm afraid. What would you say to those women going through a 23/24 week abortion? Do you think it would make any difference? Do you know what percentage of abortions are performed at 24 weeks and what the reasons for those are?

The pain issue is irrelevant but I can see why they have reported it. It's not about pain.

No, off the top of my head I don't know what percentage are performed at 24 weeks, or the reasons. Do you?

Probably a very tiny percentage. And there are probably exceptional circumstances for most of those.
And I know it's legal-does that mean I'm not allowed to have an opinion on it?

And, all this stuff about it being a 'foetus' rather than an 'unborn baby' is just splitting hairs. If it can survive outside the womb, I call that a baby.

I'm not anti-abortion at all. I just honestly find it hard to understand why anyone would wait that long to decide...unless, as i said before, there are exceptional circumstances.

I don't think people do "wait that long to decide" though.

Abortion at that stage is usually for a serious condition not compatible with life or because of a serious threat to the mother whether mental or physical.

I don't know enough about this subject to have a definitive opinion, I would like to see the abortion limit lowered and I would like to see less abortions carried out but this is just my opinion.

Oh, Ok, I see how my title might have confused. I was trying to put a short title, and saying 'OK to abort' was easier than saying 'no need to review the abortion time-limit'.

Sorry, I'm just a poor, uneducated person- I forget that sometimes it's like dealing with a bunch of lawyers on here-people do tend to come down on you for not phrasing things in exactly the right way.

Also, I remember reading about women in Ireland who had to have late terminations because they had to come here to get them, these were terminations for medical reasons I think that were picked up early but it took an awfully long time to make arrangements.
I'll see if I can find an article.

Between 1% and 2% of all abortions are carried out after 20 weeks. It's a tiny number. I agree that people don't "wait that long to decide" - most of these will have been carried out as a result of anomalies (often incompatible with life) detected at the 20-week scan, I'd hazard.

I'd also guess that those foetuses aborted at 20-24 weeks are in the main NOT those who'd have a fighting chance of survival if born at 24 weeks. Very few do survive when they are born so early.

Here is an interesting article about survival rates for very early babies.

xpost with LadyintheRadiator

I think the anti-abortion lobby were saying 'babies feel pain at under 24 weeks so you shouldn't abort them' and the response is:
1: that's an argument for administering anaesthetic (as someone said above), not an argument for not aborting
2: a fetus under 24 weeks doesn't feel pain actually

yes, oiteach

I seem to remember reading that late term abortions are usually either due to late detected abnormalities, or women who have been trying to get an abortion for ages but haven't been able to (due to eg controlling partner or family)

1-2% of hundreds of thousands of abortions is not in fact a tiny number, it's several thousand per year

I btw don't think it's particularly relevant whether or not the foetus feels pain or not. The issue is the termination of life and our response to that, also the extent to which the act can be deemed to be killing a tiny baby (as in later term) as against a mere foetus.

The foetus will suffer pain when it is born and many times thereafter, there's no objection to that. Whether it has pain pathways or not, it is certainly not akin to a mature adult suffering pain with full cognition.

The time limit seems to have be assigned based on the limits of viability initially, and maintained at that level out of a desire to preserve the status quo, which is pretty arbitrary, as presumably now there are still more people who are just a week or so too late to get an abortion.

I think it's about maintaining the link with viability rather than the status quo. I think the concern is that once you remove the abortion link with viability, then it will be hacked away at, as there will be no scientific reason to have it at any gestation - it becomes about taste and morals. Before you know it we will be down to 8 weeks.

You make a good point about pain, someguy.

Stable - you can't get all stroppy because people jumped on you for what you wrote. How are we to know that actually, you meant something different? Here on the interweb we have to take exactly what you say at face value!

Yes, that is true. TBH, I don't agree with term abortions for non life threatening disabilities. I don't see the difference between a 28 week foetus with DS and a 28 week without. I am very pro-choice and support the Abortion Act.

Whether or not a foetus feels pain is irrelevant to whether or not abortion is "ok" as far as I'm concerned - it's only relevant to whether or not pain relief is necessary. I'm glad this research debunks an anti-abortion argument though.

if a baby does not feel pain at 24 weeks then why was i told in NNU that the babies can not be held that early as their nervous system is raw making it painful and intricate scans have shown that when a baby is iincubated or had line put in at that age it is painful.. in the womb must be the same as outside...... check out the website that actually shows a baby screaming when being aborted. its called the silent abortion scream and if you google it, it comes up... im not anti abortion for some reasons, i personally wouldnt do it but i respect that other people choose to.. i just dont agree with people trying to find excuses that make it ok... pain or no pain, i wouldnt do it.. who has the right to play god with my foetus/baby..... not me for sure so certainly no doctor!!!
rant over......