8 year old girl admits lying about rape allegations

[FlyMeToDunoon]

I felt really sad about this for more than one reason.
here

dittany- my comment was directed at scurry, I posted before I saw your last post.

I didnt say that the civil route should be porsued instead of the criminal but that resources (ie civil legal aid) should be more readily available so that civil actions can be taken against rapists.

Most rapes are more like 'transactions gone wrong' than say, burglaries. Most romance/courtship/whatever you want to call it is like a transaction. That is one of the problems- some men have an expectation of sex if they go on a date/kiss someone/are flirted with. they are wrong- I am not justifying this behaviour. I am trying to be realistic. Even with recent changes in law that were supposed to improve rape convictions, they are at an all time low. Something radical has to be done. The present system sets 97% of rapists free to rape again, therefore it isn't protecting the public. A system where a man was identified as being a rapist after a civil trial would protect the public more as this case outcome would be public knowledge.

the current system does nothing to discourage men from raping when there is a 97% chance they will get away with it. If they thought there was a 50/50 chance of having to pay damages which could mean loss of home/car/income for a long time then they may be more inclined to think twice than they currently do.

What actually has happened to the assumption that someone is innocent until proven guilty?

It's not only bad for the 8 year old girl, but hardly anybody seems to spare a thought for the children that are the defendants.

This case should never have gone to court.

fas are there the same rules in place regarding not reporting names and things in the civil courts? Not many victims would want their names all over the papers.

I also wonder if there is any reason why sex crimes would be more successfully prosecuted in the civil courts than the criminal ones? You said the burden of proof is different, but given the way these crimes are considered by so many people in our society, and teh problems with the criminal process, would there be any different with civil prosecutions? I'm afraid i don't know much about them. Wouldn't the women maybe just end up going through the whole process twice for nothing?

WW have you read the thread?
Many people believe that the boys are innocent, and that somethng terrible has happened to them, and that the case should never have gone to court. Loads of people are "sparing a thought" for them. The papers headlines are "girl is a liar" "girl lied for sweets" which pretty much shows what they think. The consensus in the press is that the girl is a manipulative liar. I cannot see where your post has come from TBH. Eveyone is on your side! Most people think that the girl has done something terribly bad to the boys, that she is a liar, and it should never have gone to court. I don;t know how else to draw that to your attention really.

"I think a solution to the problem of sex crimes in general is to shift the emphasis from criminal to civil actions"

"A lot of aquaintance rapes are akin to transactions that have gone wrong"

These are the comments you made that I was commenting on, especially your second comment.
What is rape of a prostitute then? Making off without payment, the same as a bilking?

The emphasis of these crimes should be on the criminal.

dittany- 'Men who think like that are a danger to women. And if there are men who do think like that out there, women should be warned to stay away from them'

indeed they are but a woman isn't going to know that a man she is with is a rapist until he rapes her

Are you advocating that all women stay away from all men?

How can women be warned if so many rapists get away with it? If they were sued they could be identified and women could stay away from those men.

I know what I suggested isn't ideal but the current system doen't work. What do you suggest to change it?
no juries?, lower burden of proof?

"Most people think that the girl has done something terribly bad to the boys, that she is a liar, and it should never have gone to court."

I think that is unfair. I haven't seen anyone in this thread imply, let alone say, anything like what you said. I don't think this little girl is a liar, or that she has done something terribly bad. I don't think she made a malicious decision to smear the boys in question. I just think there is a very real possibility that somewhere between the incident with these other two children, her speaking to her mum and then both she and her mum speaking to the authorities, things may very well have become confused and that it is impossible to say what did happen between the three of them. Perhaps she was raped, and if she was then that is not only heartbreakingly sad for her but also for the two children who hurt her. On the other hand, perhaps it was a children's game which got out of hand and has been misinterpreted by adults. We will never know, I hope for the sake of all the children involved that it wasn't rape.

Several posters have said how awful it is that people are trying to paint this little girl as a liar, and I agree a lot of the media coverage is distasteful at best. However, I find it just as awful that some of those same posters seem to be trying to paint two little boys as rapists. TBH I'm not even sure if I think children of that age are capable of rape.

Allidon, of course a boy of that age is capable of rape...he would be capable of putting his penis in her mouth and that is rape.

I didn't mean physically, more whether they were capable of thinking through their actions and understanding the effects of their actions on another person, particularly if it seemed to them that the other person was willingly taking part in a game. Physically causing someone pain, hitting, kicking etc causes an obvious physical reaction in the other person, so I would expect most NT 10 year olds can probably understand at least the immediate consequences of those kind of actions. Games involving private parts, especially when they are probably still in the process of learning about and understanding sex, I'm not sure if they could fully assess the consequences of that.

dittany- i copied and pasted from your post!

Why would we think an 8yo had done something terribly bad even if she had told a lie? Most of us are mums, surely we know that trying to lie their way out of trouble is something 8yos do quite frequently? WHy would be shocked by that? I have had 8yos (and 10yos) of both sexes, they were none of them overreliable. But stating that an 8yo child may have told a lie for fear of being punished is not the same as being misogynistic or thinking that rape victims always lie. I am equally prepared to believe that a couple of 10yos may be lying. I shall keep an open mind on this one.

The difference is that rape defendants have a reason to lie, victims don't.

Rape victims don't lie, but then not everyone who reports a rape is a victim.

and with attitudes like that in society victims have F* all hope of seeing justice

Well there are alwyas some weirdos out there FAS, but I take the approach best not to engage with them.

I am a bit worried your characterisation of rape as "a transaction gone wrong". Would you see a violent assault as a "transaction gone wrong"? You may not have meant anything by this but that kind of talk is very damaging to rape victims and society in general. Do we really need to see sex as a transaction, with the woman's mouth and vagina as resources for which access to needs to be negotiated? That's a highly depressing view of normal relationships.

I meant that from a man's perspective it is. A lot of guys think that if they take a girl on a date they 'deserve' some kind of sexual servicing in return. From their perspective, when they go on to have sex with someone without her consent (usually because they dont care whether she is consenting or not), and then she says she was raped (which she was), it is a transaction gone wrong.

Because we live in such a sexualised society, rife with pornography, prostitution, lapdancing etc men see women as consumerist objects to be bought or consumed as they please.

Juries often believe defendants over victims because the defendant is often genuine in their belief of consent (however fancical that belief is). Too many men think that a woman protesting/putting up a struggle is a normal part of sex.

"and with attitudes like that in society victims have F* all hope of seeing justice."

And the same goes for an atitude like that

OK FAS I see what you mean. I still hope that it is a minority that see things like that! I would say rapists see sex in that way, not men in general. I know what you mean about the rape myths that can sway juries, the outcome of some cases can only lead a person to think that there are a lot of people out there with worrying preconceptions about what consent is.

BBJ-and how would my attitude stop a victims getting justice exactly?

antionette- rapists aren't different from 'ordinary' men. the perception that they must be identifiable 'beasts' is another reason so few get convicted. no-one wants to believe that a nice, normal lad is capable of rape. but they are.

there was some american survey a few years back done on college guys. 95% said they would rape a woman if they thought they would get away with it. since 97% do it is actually surprising that there aren't more rapes. (there probably are, they just aren't reported)

"BBJ-and how would my attitude stop a victims getting justice exactly?"

Justice is for both sides, those that are raped and those that are falsely accused. You can see through out this thread that there are already those that believe that boys didn't do it, there are those that believe they did, and there are those that can see that from the evidence we have been given that just don't know. If the boys are found innocent in some peoples eyes they are still guilty.

Was the report about college guys run in the same way as the Mary Koss 1 in 4 rape studies of the 80's?

FAS I'm only to weel aware that rapists are ordinary men, and don't lurk around in stained macs with a neon sign above their head. Many are quite personable, and wouldn't see themselves as rapists.

However it is important to recognise that not all men are rapists, or see sex as a transaction. If we lump all men together with rapists then it risks normalising these harmful attitudes.