Bit of a Rant About the Term "Racist"

[NotQuiteCockney]

There's been a bit of a scrum with people being called racist here today (after the whole bombings thing). It's bugging me quite a bit.

There aren't two big categories of people in the world, a racist one (with the BNP, Hitler, etc in it) and a not-racist one (all the nice folks). Racism is a continuum. At one end, ok, there's the BNP, Hitler etc.

At the other end, the completely not-racist one? There's pretty much nobody. Small children, who see skin colour as a human characteristic, like ear size and finger length. Probably some SN folks. I honestly believe that nobody here is completely and utterly not-racist.

Why do I say that? Because we see skin colour (and other racial characteristics) as indicators of people's behaviour. I am racist. I try to control it, but I make generalisations, based on what I hear and see, and apply them, unfairly, to people based on their colour.

Some of these are innocuous. For example, I find Black men are more likely to help me carry a pram up and down tube stairs than white men (some don't). I would expect a South Asian person to be more likely to know about a good curry house (some won't). I would be surprised to meet an East Asian person who was Jewish (but I'm sure some are, why not?). But these views are still racist.

Yes, Black people are racist. As are White people and everyone else, all to varying degrees. And who people are racist about, and how much, varies so much that it doesn't really make sense to call someone racist - calling an opinion or an attitude racist is probably fairer, although also very incendiary.

Fair enough if you want to think that, but i don't consider it racist.

I just feel that we go too far sometimes.

You're comment about an Asian person to know a good curry house. You have a few people in front of you, one is Asian, one is Black, one is white, one is a traveller. which one will you choose to ask first about a curry house?
I'm no people will shoot me for this, but i think there is a higher probability that the Asian person will recommend the best curry. And i would not call myself racist for thinking that. Judgmental yes, but not racist.

HD I think I do my best to be not-racist. And as my best friend for 10 years as a kid was mixed, I find talking to people who are much further over the continuum very very hard.

I really do have to sleep soon. I'll see if this kicks off overnight ...

it seems to have been a strange day on mn today, anyway i have got the kids to bed and am about to pour myself a glass of wine and have a read thru todays events (dh is out for a ballgame)

Fran1: absolutely. Probably that would be right. But it's still a prejudice, and sometimes it would be wrong. If Asians were continually being asked about curry houses, the ones who weren't into curries, and really prefer French food, would get annoyed.

As I said to my dw, when we talked about it. My saying I'm not racist doesn't mean a thing. It's for you to decide whether I am or not, by my words and actions.

Fran1 - I'd ask the white guy. I've known 2 white guys very passionate about their curries and an Asian guy, born here, who adores English food!

To be honest, I'd ask the white or black guys but because I'd assume that the asian guy eats curries at home and doesn't go to curry houses.

I'd ask them all at once!

Yes and everyone gets annoyed at things, but it still is not racist.

Nurses could get annoyed with their friends always asking them medical questions.

Chinese/british people could get annoyed with people asking them to translate things to chinese for them.

Still not racist to neither the chinese or the nurses!

HD - i did think of changing it to say recommend a good recipe for a good curry!

And i'm in silly mode, so please don't have a go at me, but i couldn't help thinking you were going to say you'd ask the white or black men because the Asian guy was wearing a rucksack.

No Fran, nurses get annoyed with people they haven't met before who find out their career asking about their total medical history (not on MN though I hasten to add!)!!!

Well, it's not really prejudice to assume a nurse knows medical stuff.

It's a bit prejudiced to assume a Chinese person speaks Chinese - it's often hard to tell by appearance which East Asian country someone's from, and of course lots of British East Asians only speak English.

I'm not claiming all these prejudices are the same as joining the KKK. I'm just saying there's a continuum here, and essentially nobody is not-racist.

I think what you say about it being hard to talk to anyone further down the continuum is interesting, NQC - everyone (including me) tends to feel that their 'level' (whatever that may be) is acceptable and justifiable, and that anyone below that is beyond the pale. (er, is that the right expression!!!).
And that in itself is misleading because there are many contexts and arenas for diffferent bits of belief - you could b totally non-racist with your Jamaican partner, whislt holding anti-semitic views, for e.g.

Ok asking a computer engineer to fix your stereo.

Oh please let this thread roll of active convos before the morning rush

Exactly, Blu! People have different levels of prejudice about different groups of people.

I just don't think "racist" is a useful term. Nobody on here agrees they are one in the "evil" sense of the word. And once someone is called "racist", then any useful discussion immediately stops.

That is a very good post NQC, and I do agree with you. We do all make assumptions about ppl, but some are realistic and useful, some are not. That makes the difference between offensive prejudices and normal social skills. Of course, in the middle of the two extremes it is going to be debatable as to what is offensive.

Also pmsl at Fran1!

I disagree completely with the way you define racism. Both definitiions from dictionary.com have racism defined as believing one race to be superior to another and any prejudices attached to it are negative.

Assuming that an asian person will know where to get a good curry is making an assumption based on appearance in the same way we do ever moment of our lives. If, say, you saw 2 Chinese restaurants, one packed with Chinese people, one with europeans, which would you think was the best? It that racist? No, it's assuming that the Chinese people know their cuisine the best.

I would argue against it being prejudice too. Again, from {http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=prejudicedictionary.com the definititions almost all imply negativity and hurt. Assuming that someone from a particular race knows a certain piece of information is not prejudice, it's a simple assumption.

I am not racist. I do not believe mself to be superior to others based on race. I believe myself superior based on actions sometimes but that has nothing to do with race.

Yes, rasism isn't a yes/no trait but I don't believe that everyone is guilty of racism. Lots of people are gulty of making assumptions based on appearance but that doesn't make it racist at all, it's just registering a visible characteristic and making an assumption based on it. If there is no sense of superiority or any derogatory aspect to the assumption then it is not racist.

well said soupdragon,that is what i was trying to say in my roundabout way last night!

Ok, so how do you decide what's superior or derogatory? How about the assumption that Black men have bigger willies? Is that superior, derogatory, or neutral?

How about the commonly-held (at least in the past) belief that Black people naturally have better rhythm?

Neither of these beliefs are inherantly bad. But both of them link up to some very very negative beliefs that are also commonly-held (Black men are sex-mad rapists, Black people are not very smart, but they do know how to have fun).

I think you're right, that racism in the common usage implies that you're making value judgements about races.

But I also think that determining if you're making value judgements can be tricky. I have known plenty of people who've held those two assumptions above. Do they believe the negative things linked to them? Maybe.

And, not to be controversial, but some studies have shown that Black men do have slightly larger penises than white men, although the measurements in question were of flaccid penises, which isn't exactly what matters ... but it is what men see generally in locker rooms, so presumably a possible source of this belief?

And of course if your culture involves a lot of music and dance, which many Black cultures traditionally do, you will be a better dancer.

I thiink the 'big willies' thing is historically part of a construct about black men being animalistic. There's a lot of research to support this, but won't clog the thread with it!

I'm afraid that all black men and women i know and have met are fab dancers and have great rhythm, and i let them know.

You can't call me racist for thinking that.

But saying something that puts the black race above your own is not racist at all is it? It's hardly being superior to effectively say whites have smaller penises and can't dance as well as black men is it? Uness you're black I guess. And I've never heard the well-endowed/sex mad rapist connection.

Blacks seem to be far superior at all manner of sports too but not, for some reason, swimming IIRC. It's not racist to say that though.

I fear that may be a bit too symplistic Soupy. This is a hugely subtle and emotive subject. People spend years studying it - I think a dictionatry definition is a starting point, but it demands alot more study to follow.

I also suspect that many who read this might be dismayed at the suggestion that racism is somehow natural or innate. Discrimination is, prejudice is, but IMO racism is something much more pernicious, like sexism and misogyny.

It is a contiuum like you suggest but I don't know where the line between everyday discrimination (and we are all discerning) and racism begins. I suspect it's blurred and slippery and may depend very much on intent, but I don't believe ignorance provides an excuse.

I'm not sure that asking a person of asian appearance, (someone you don't know, off the street) where the best curry houses are isn't racist. I'd find that incredibly rude, at least and wantonly ignorant.

The old adage about black men's appendages is racist as it is directly linked to colonial attitudes of 'natives' being exotic, highly sexed and somehow 'closer to nature' ie, primitive. It is nothing to do with how people would choose to present themselves and everything to do with how a stereotype is constucted by an undenibly racist society.

But stereotype is another tricky term. It has its uses, but has to be appreciated as a short cut.

I think probably its possible for someone to say something racist without being a racist. But if they say such things reguarly and and attempt to justify it then they are racist. Everyone can make a mistake, can be stupid and tactless. Can be scared witless.

I'm thinking of the term 'colour-blind' and the debte which surrounds this with reference to positive discrimination. It used to be thought preferable if everyone was colour blind, but that denies those of different colour their right to self identity and pride. Not being colour blind isn't the same as being racist. Is it more racist to try to be, even?

I'm going to do some reading on this this afternoon.