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John Venables- do we have a right to know???

243 replies

onebadbaby · 03/03/2010 22:29

Do we really have the right to know if and when the killers of James Bulger re-offend?

I am inclined to say we don't. If they have been given a new identity and life then what is the point and benefit of the general public having knowledge. In my opinion, any re-offences should remain in his new name.

Obviously members of the press behold certain information on the new lives of the two killers, but I really don't see the benefit of this being public knowledge.

Also- do you remember how you thought and behaved at ten? I certainly do and in a way I don't think ten years old is under the age when responsibility for such an horrific crime has to be considered.

Opinions??

OP posts:
Confuzled · 09/03/2010 18:46

"so you think it fine that murderers arn't punished.
(strange how the "oh those poor boys" seem to be the people throwing arround abuse on this thread) "

They were punished. You don't think enough, but you can't say they weren't because 8 years in a secure home is a punishment. No freedom, no family around you, nobody who actually loves you to look after you. And actually they will be punished for life by being this hated, too.

I also think people need to ask themselves what punishment is for. When you punish your kids, is it to alter their behaviour in future? If keeping them in a YOI for a few years after they grew too old for the secure home had made them more of a release risk rather than less, would that have been okay in your eyes because they were punished more? Believe me, my feelings on their release are extremely mixed - not at all sure it was a good choice - but I accept that you can't lock someone up for life for something they did at ten, and that being so, releasing them before they were brutalised by a YOI was sound on purely pragmatic grounds. It may feel very unfair, but it was a sensible decision if your only consideration is the safety of the public.

There is a LOT of research out there that strongly shows that YOI/prisons are catastrophic in terms of increased reoffending. The effects of the moral panic unleashed by the Bulger case was actually really, really bad news in criminological circles, because before that the Tory gov.t of the day had accepted that research and were quietly and rather successfully moving away from prison where at all possible. The moral panic of the Bulger murder, and fear of "feral youth", meant they did a really sharp u-turn. Michael Howard had quietly been surprisingly liberal before that and the numbers of young people/kids in prison were falling, along with rates of youth crime. After, numbers began to rise again and stayed that way.

It's all well and good to shout in an emotional way about what sanctions would make you feel better when kids commit crime. The problem is the evidence on what happens when the state punishes as you want is against you. If those bos were to be released when posing the lowest risk of serious reoffence it had to be before they went into a YOI or prison. I am uncomfortable with the risk they pose, I am unsure they are a reasonable risk. But you can't keep 10 year olds in jail for a real life term. And so releasing when they did was the safest thing for society, on all the evidence we have.

This is complicated and pretending otherwise is really, really pointless. Easy, comforting even, but pointless. The ciminology is all against you. Animal instinct (to protect babies) is against the criminology. Balancing the two is the only way forward and public safety, and cold, hard evidence instead of heated basic-level animal emotion, is where the line has been drawn.

The really sad thing is that is not where that line has been drawn for all the other youth criminals, who haven't done anything remotely as drastic as this. I don't know the current state of play, having dropped the subject with a thankful sigh, but they certainly spent a decade paying for the moral panic over what Venables and Thompson did in their own sentencing outcomes.

finally · 09/03/2010 18:46

We do not have the right to anything.This case has been a spectacular failure of his rehab and needs investigating to that end.If the little boys mum wants to know then I think it is a difficult one as she has to be respected as none of us know where her head is but also he needs anonymity because innocent people do get caught in the cross fire.As I said before this is not a subject for tittle tattle and the tabloids

pickupthismess · 09/03/2010 19:40

I'm not advocating at all on behalf of full disclosure but I do think politicians (and others) are quite wrong to say we don't have a right to know.

Actually, we do have a right. We are the tax payers. We are invested in this system of rehabilitation (for them and other offenders). We elect the politicians to represent us and so in theory if 'we' want to know what he has done and why and how things have gone wrong then we should.

Obviously, the problem is what some people would do with that knowledge. So understandably the 'state' our representatives reject our rights and take a view that full disclosure would lead to some idiot(s) trying to harm JV and RT. They may be correct to do this but it doesn't mean we aren't within our rights to ask the questions.

thesecondcoming · 09/03/2010 19:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

assumetheposition · 09/03/2010 20:03

pickupthismess - I really don't understand your reasoning. Are you honestly saying that, as tax payers, we have the right to know the details of every government decision, regardless of the threat to public or personal safety, just because we are curious?

There is a very very big difference between what is IN the interests of the public as opposed to what merely interests the public - and this is a prime example.

There have been numerous people arguing what would you do in Denis Fergus' shoes, how would you feel if it were your child etc. But that is why she, or anyone else with an emotional interest, doesn't get to make the decision. Of course she, or any parent, would want them strung up, but we have a legal system which is there to take the emotions out of those decisions.

It's not as simple as 'they are victims vs they are depraved killers' but clearly, somewhere along the way these boys were let down by parents, teachers, social workers, society at large. It's not absolving them of responsibility, merely saying that society has a responsibility to socialise and protect vulnerable children (which these 2 boys obviously were).

The cases of those other 2 boys in Doncaster, and baby P and all the other tragic cases only goes to prove that, despite the tabloid hand ringing and witch hunts, social policy has had little impact on this section of society.

I just find the whole attitude of people very Romanesque. Nobody on this thread or anywhere else, has come up with a legitimate reason why it is in the public interests to reveal his name (whether we have rights or not) or how we, as a society would benefit. However people seem to be saying that, he's had his chance, he's fucked it up, so now he should be thrown out for our own entertainment. Someone round up a couple of lions and a chariot!

Bread and circuses, nothing more.

gaelicsheep · 09/03/2010 20:43

The bottom line is that the British public has neither the intelligence nor the maturity to be trusted with such information.

Plus, as I said earlier, the absolute last person who should be told anything is Denise Fergus. Of course she feels she has a right to know, but really she hasn't thought it through. How can somebody that close to the case possibly be trusted to keep such information confidential? And what possible good would it do in any case?

pickupthismess · 09/03/2010 20:59

assume actaully I do think through freedom of info we do have the right to access all info unless it endangers national security. But that's by the by.

I'm not saying I want to know JV's name - I couldn't care less and I agree that is mere curiosity. But actually I would like to know his crime if he is tried and found guilty.

There are v few generic crimes that can identify him personally. If it is v serious and it requires jail time then personally I don't feel much inclined to pay much more money to support another identity. He's made those decisions as an adult.

I do also think that people are missing the point with Denise. She has shown enormous fortitude in unimaginable circumstances and she clearly feels deeply upset that the boys were never punished for a very sadistic and cruel crime. I know they were taken away from their family but to be honest that sounds like a blessing. I agree vengeance is not something to be supported by the criminal justice system but those two knew what they were doing. As such they should have been punished in some way. Community service for life?? I don't know just something. I think a lot of people in this country feel they forgot the victims family when sentencing.

2shoes · 09/03/2010 21:06

gaelicsheep what a sweeping statement.
tbh I can'ts ee the point in me knowing who he is now.
couldn't give a flying f$$$
but I will allow the victims family anything that helps them through thier grief.

(hides thread)

gaelicsheep · 09/03/2010 21:09

2shoes - think about it. They cannot release that kind of information to the family of a victim and expect it to stay out of the public domain. They just can't. I have the utmost respect and sympathy for Denise Fergus - how could anybody not - but she must realise that they cannot reveal that information to her of all people.

BigGitDad · 09/03/2010 21:15

FWIW, no.

thesecondcoming · 09/03/2010 21:16

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ShadeofViolet · 09/03/2010 21:54

I have recieved two text messages today naming the person people claim to be Venables, and there is a facebook group naming the same inoocent man. Its sick to think that probably somewith with a grudge has been able to brand him like that.

FWIW I dont think that anyone has the right to know, mainly because it would not be able to be kept quiet. Denise Fergus would not be able to keep it to herself, the information would be too much for her.

Can I ask (as I dont know) - if this was any other crime where an offenders name had been changed, would details be given out, for example if Maxine Carr reoffended? Would they tell Holly and Jessica's parents about it?

thesecondcoming · 09/03/2010 22:10

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gaelicsheep · 09/03/2010 22:12

Oh God, how long before some poor guy gets seriously hurt or murdered over this? The tabloids will have blood on their hands at the end of this episode, just as they did with the crazy paedophile thing.

ShadeofViolet · 09/03/2010 22:39

It was him TSC - As soon as I read the texts I thought that it sounded fake - like a rumour that someone with a grudge would start. I replied to both texts saying it wasnt true.

thesecondcoming · 09/03/2010 22:52

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mayorquimby · 10/03/2010 12:28

The fact that people are naming that david guy as john venables proves that they are not intelligent enough to be trusted with the information. I mean surely the fact that jon venables has been re-arrested and that guy is not in jail is all the proof they'd need to know they are not the same person. Add to that that even if he was their conduct so far proves what would happen if jon venables identity was revealed.
I reserve my annoyance for the pitchfork wielding idiots who feel the need to show how devestated they are etc. as though it's some moral badge of achievment when the reality is they probably haven't thought about the incident in the last decade or so and are doing what they are doing because they want to feel important or they're bored. I can understand the mother of the victim not being rational and making demands and statements on tv about what she has a right to know etc. as she is never going to be able to approach this from a rational angle, who could. But that does not mean that these demands should be met, there is no good reason why she should have a right to know the nature of the crimes, be present at any future trial or know the identity of venables now as it could jeopradise the trial and his safety.

Clarissimo · 10/03/2010 13:40

Good post MQ

Triggles · 10/03/2010 14:02

I can see why the government or law enforcement don't want to release the name, but I feel that part of their release should have been a simple "here's your new identity - but if you are stupid enough to break the law AGAIN, you lose all anonymity, so think carefully about what you do!" One would have thought that in such a precarious position, if he HAS reoffended (which sounds likely) then I feel he has given up his right to a new identity or anonymity. In my mind, it's very much the idea that while he was given a chance once, it shouldn't be a lifelong thing if he continues to break the law.

After all, he obviously knows public opinion on them and their crimes (or else they wouldn't have been granted anonymity to begin with), so he must be able to reason that further trouble with the law might jeopardise that hidden identity and place him in a dangerous position. And yet he chose to take the chance of throwing it all away simply to commit another crime. (again, in theory, as it's technically alleged)

thesecondcoming · 10/03/2010 15:40

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Clarissimo · 10/03/2010 15:47

If they took that option though, he'd have to be kept in solitary now at a cost of £++++ wouldn't he? becuase a just state cannot removed anonymity knowing the potential outcome.

Indeed hasn't he been rumoured to have outed himself before? Which may suggest that frankly he's beyoind the stage of caring much what happens. That may be through stupidity, self hatred, drugs, whatever psychological damage enabled him to behave like he did....

The people who are releasing names, otr who would harm anybody regardless of what they did, physically and are baying for blood are very definitely edging on the morality scale towards planned murderer themselves- but as they say, it takes one to knjow one. Maybe they should stop spreading crap rumours and take a very hard look at themselves.

girlylala0807 · 10/03/2010 15:51

You know, I recieved a text message last night which had his name, where he lives and what he did, I dont knw how true it all is though.

Message underneath was TELL EVERYONE...

thesecondcoming · 10/03/2010 15:54

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Clarissimo · 10/03/2010 16:00

Agreed TSC

girlylala0807 · 10/03/2010 16:02

I just ignored it, not passing it around. I dont know what good it would do.

Ive not read the whole thread so not sure what thegeneral opinion is, but I cant see how that info would help anyone?

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