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John Venables- do we have a right to know???

243 replies

onebadbaby · 03/03/2010 22:29

Do we really have the right to know if and when the killers of James Bulger re-offend?

I am inclined to say we don't. If they have been given a new identity and life then what is the point and benefit of the general public having knowledge. In my opinion, any re-offences should remain in his new name.

Obviously members of the press behold certain information on the new lives of the two killers, but I really don't see the benefit of this being public knowledge.

Also- do you remember how you thought and behaved at ten? I certainly do and in a way I don't think ten years old is under the age when responsibility for such an horrific crime has to be considered.

Opinions??

OP posts:
noddyholder · 08/03/2010 17:56

Milly why do you want to know What effect would it have on your life?

MadameCastafiore · 08/03/2010 18:27

I think you all need to remember that both Robert Thompson and Jon Venables were also victims to a degree - their lives were appalling and they must have witnessed awful things for them to have done what they did to poor little James.

It is no comfort to James Bulgers mother I know but monsters are more often made that way than born it.

bobbysmum07 · 08/03/2010 18:46

I'm sick of hearing how Venables and Thompson were 'victims' too.

That's why they got 8 years of therapy in a children's home, isn't it? New lives, new identities, fresh starts. No punishments.

It's time to move on from that. They are no longer 10 years old.

Personally, I think the whole 'rehabilitation' exercise was futile. One or both of these kids clearly had a sadistic psychopathic disorder to do something so sick, so depraved. I don't think they could ever be rehabilitated, not really. It would be like trying to rehabilitate Ian Brady.

The whole thing's sickening. It's like some mad social experiment gone wrong.

nickytwotimes · 08/03/2010 18:54

We have no right to know.

THose involved (ie the mother, etc) may do, but we certainly don't.

Totally agree with ChoChoSan about grief porn and voyuerism. Good post.

2shoes · 08/03/2010 18:54

why does mn insist on makeing out murderes are victims?

TheShriekingHarpy · 08/03/2010 19:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

littletortie · 08/03/2010 19:21

I am seriously struggling to see them as victims. A lot of people go through horrendous horrendous episodes of their lives- they dont go on to kill!!! What makes them so different?? Why are they victims?? There are only a handful of victims here, and thats poor James and his family.

FairyMum · 08/03/2010 19:52

Well, what are you supposed to do with children who kill rather than try to rehabilitate them? Throw away the key and let them rot? I would think you have a much better chance to rehabilitate a 10-year old than an adult. I don't think anyone diagrees their crime is beyound shocking, but I find it much more shocking when an adult kills a child or even when a parent kills a child.

Did not James Bulger's mother leave him alone outside a shop in a shopping centre? I wonder why the McCanns were so villified and still are after leaving their children in their department, yet I have never heard anyone say anything about James Bulger being left alone by his mother? I wonder why this is.

thesecondcoming · 08/03/2010 19:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BogofFun · 08/03/2010 19:56

It's going to be hard for him to have a fair trial, as his new name in already in the public domain, if furious chain text messages in Liverpool are to be believed.

Remotew · 08/03/2010 20:18

He should be tried in his new name for this crime, whatever it is. If the crime fits I would like to know that he is locked up in an adult prison to serve his punishment in the same was as everyone else would.

Cannot imagine what would happen to him if his identity is detected in an adult male prison, but I won't lose any sleep over it.

His mother left him outside a shop for a couple of minutes. Not hours.

bobbysmum07 · 08/03/2010 20:20

James Bulger's mother did not leave him alone. She turned her back for two minutes to pay for her lamb chops and he got away from her.

James Bulger's mother is a better woman than me. If James had been one of my kids, I would have hunted Thompson and Venables down and killed them. I wouldn't care whether it made me as bad as them, I wouldn't care whether I went to prison for it for the rest of my life. I would have killed them. And I bet I'm not the only one.

Remotew · 08/03/2010 20:22

Sorry, she didn't leave him outside, he wandered out.

geordieminx · 08/03/2010 20:37

I dont understand why they are keeping the alleged crime a secret - if any other person in this country commited the same crime then the information would be public knowledge, why should the details not be released?

Also, much at was a hideous crime that was commited and I cannot begin to comprehend what James Bulgers' family must have gone through but I dont understand why Jack Straw met with her last week to discuss any of this.

The I (rightly or wrongly) see it, is that Thompson and Venibles were found guilty and punished (although I think not severely enough) for the murder that they commited. They have served their time for it, and as such it is a conviction "spent" - therefore, anything that happens from now on really, has nothing at all to do with her. I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but it seems pretty resonable IMO?

girlsyearapart · 08/03/2010 20:38

nope bobbysmum you're not the only one.

thesecondcoming · 08/03/2010 20:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Remotew · 08/03/2010 21:01

I couldn't even begin to walk in Denise Fergus's shoes but can understand why she wants to know. I don't think I could personally kill whatever this circumstances. If the murderers had been adult she would know what was going on as they wouldn't have had the protection of new identities.

Posters who are saying that they have served their time etc maybe missing the point that the 'British Justice System' messed up trying them in the adult court in the first place and that it why I believe that they were let out earlier than they should have been. I don't see that they were ever punished as such.

Confuzled · 08/03/2010 21:20

I think the treatment the McCanns get is unforgivable, but for the record: James Bulger wandered outside the shop while his mother paid. Literally just 20 seconds later, CCTV shows his mother rushing outside to look for him. The shop was at the top of an escalator, and as the two boys were actively seeking a victim (another mother had stopped them taking her child) they had already led him down it. CCTV footage showed them exiting the shopping centre altogether within 4 minutes of James exiting that butcher's shop.

I do agree about grief porn. There's also something incredibly disrespectful to the real victims about clammy-handed sentimentality. Grief Lite. But actually there's also a problem here in that people really don't know enough about this case, despite being convinced that they know everything, because despite all the column inches the full details were just too disturbing to be widely released. The police involved said it was the most sadistic killing most saw in a career, and that was irrepective of the age of the killers. And in a sense yes, it does matter what happened to him, because I do wonder about the comparisons people make to other murders, such as the Norwegian one, and the ready willingness to think that 8 years would be enough to make these boys low risks to the rest of society. Any adult who did as they did would be unlikely to get out within 30 years... if ever. And of course they were children and you can't hold kids to the same level of culpability, but leaving aside punishment, what about public protection? Most adults who do things like this also endured horrific childhoods, and yet they are dangerous. It's legitimate to ask, how and why do they believe that these boys are not?

I think one reason for the polarisation here is that it's impossible to connect the misery endured by two very disturbed, unhappy, betrayed small boys on the one hand, with the extreme savagery of what they did to a tiny child on the other. It seems impossible that anyone you humanise could be capable of this sort of thing. We dehumanise murderers because we can't empathise with what they have done. So it's very hard to hold both those facts in your mind at once - empathy and understanding for the boys, while keeping comprehension of the horror of what they chose to do to the baby. But at the same time, you aren't dealing with the reality of the situation if you gloss over what happened to James. You aren't engaging with the pathology of those boys, nor the very real risk they represented and frankly may always represent. It isn't that they killed someone that is quite so frightening: it's not the case that every child who kills will do it so very, very disturbingly. I agree that some people seem to gloat over the detail, while wilfully ignoring the fact that they were so very young and unformed, but others seem wilfully blind to the implications of releasing them, too.

I wouldn't recommend that anyone try to find out what happened. I learned about it as a student and it gave me nightmares, tbh. I am going to hide these threads now because I can't really stop remembering it at the moment and it's horrible, and unlike his poor parents, that isn't something I have to do. I have the option to stop. But to say that there is no point to a public debate about the way we treat serious young offenders is really rather shocking. You may find some views abhorrent, and I might agree, but that's the point of a debate, surely. To try to think about things while hearing all shades of opinion? You can't say that the criminal justice, sentencing and penal systems in action should be outside public discourse just because some of the public are cretins.

WidowWadman · 08/03/2010 22:39

bobbysmum07 - you explain perfectly why it's neccessary to grant them anonymity.

Remotew · 08/03/2010 22:49

Watched the news tonight and some of the new info coming out was very disturbing. Do hope they get it right now and he gets an appropriate sentence.

girlsyearapart · 09/03/2010 06:39

Have just seen someone post on their facebook status the alleged new name of Venables, his location and what he was meant to have done this time.

Has anyone else seen it..

ProfYaffle · 09/03/2010 09:29

I have seen a name on FB, and have also seen frantic denials that this name is correct and the man named is entirely innocent. Treat with extreme caution I'd say.

Clarissimo · 09/03/2010 09:45

Ah I types all this once, damned pc / toddler / bad day combo!

I wopn't look at afacebook today as I think outing him is tantamount to condoning murder and I have no wish to be aprt of that.

As I said before it were possible to strip him of his anonymity should he be convicted without placing him at risk of death then maybe, but it isn't so we cannot allow that as a country. We don't have the death penalty.

As for shoudl what he is said to ahev done be released- no. We know that victims fare better if they receive justice and preventing Venables facing trial and possibly giving someone else justice is clearly wrong. They don't deserve that any less becuase their perpetrator has a history after all. Should Denise fergus know? probably if she would ahve kept it quiet, but sadly she didn't last time and whilst it is her right to react to her lifelong griewfd exactly as it hits her, the whole point of a distant jury system etc is that non emotio0nally linked people make the decisions. If ehr actions are likely to trigger violence and murder, then absolutely not.

Am doubly empahasising I am not criticising her: she has the right to be as angry and vindictive as she cares to be, of course she does.

I do think 8 years wasn't enough but that is in the past. I could see value in that debate if people were looking at changing the sentencing laws but they're not, they just focus on one case. The way the law stands though whole life sentending for minors is not allowed; who would want a law system that could act outside the laws? not me.

I do feel there are a few people who would still claim they didn't suffer enough if they were imprisoned on hard labour until the day before they died from naturalc auses then brutally killed by the state. When that sort of attoitude is existent I am not sure what anyone can do, understandable for people who were invovled, not so for those who were not. Scary and dehumansising in fact. And a complete waste of energy: change the system if you don't like it, sitting at the PC venting hate is pointless and will only make you ill.

mayorquimby · 09/03/2010 10:34

Do all the people engaging in competitive grief and outrage and crying out for him to be named not realise the jeoprady it would place on any possible trial? Honestly I fail to see how any judge could decide it would be possible for him to get a fair trial if he were named. It would most likely lead to him being released and given a new identity.

Clarissimo · 09/03/2010 10:37

Quite MQ

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