India Knight at it again

[EdgarAllenSnow]

here she goes

although she seems to be quoting the other lady, Elisabeth Badinter, i think she doesn't weight this piece particularly evenly... despite her conclusion being 'whatever does it for you is what you should do' for their mothering choices, the picture painted of breastfeeding cloth-nappy using own-puree food making types (such as, haha, myself) is not a pretty one.

Personally the above 3 options save me countless amounts of money every year (ok, about £2k - 1k booby milk, £500 nappies £500 using cheap veg/ home cooking rather than 80p per jar baby food - so not countless) Feminism has nothing to do with it.

i will probably regret asking, but in what way do these women feel that, abetadad?

what are they having to do that makes them feel pre equal opportunities legislation?

fishie - the three women I am closest to in my life all say they cannot understand why women of the 1950s/60s fought to throw off the shackles of being tied to home and hearth and yet now see yong women some 50 years later apparently desperate to put the shackles back on again.

My Mother, MIL and DW are not doing anything that makes them feel pre-equal opportunities. However, they all express amazement that other younger women seem to want to go back to the drudgery and sheer exhaustion that AvrilHeytch describes.

ABetaDad - I don't think any woman is fighting to return to the drudgery of 1950s housewifery.

I do think that being a WOHM when you have a family and a busy partner can be sheer, relentless drudgery, however. The issue is too much work and not enough play. If you are reasonably well off, a SAHM (or one who does a small part time job) can have a lot more fun and fulfillment than a FT WOHM because she still has some time left over for fun/going out with friends/glamour/excitement/travel - things that were few and far between in the 1950s!

Bonsoir - I agree with you and especially this:

"If you are reasonably well off, a SAHM (or one who does a small part time job) can have a lot more fun and fulfillment than a FT WOHM because she still has some time left over ...."

Well off women since time imemorial have always been able to pay someone else to do the chores and I include hiring nannies and wet nurses to nurse and breast feed babies. Less well off women had to do the chores themselves.

Ah, I think that modern women can do all the chores and most childcare themselves easily, and still have time left over for fun! That's the difference with the 1950s - life is so much easier now.

Obviously, if you choose to live in a massive house in the middle of nowhere, the chores and errands of life might become all-consuming! But you really don't need a lot of help these days - lots of machines, perhaps!

I also think, however, that we all have quite inexplicable personal preferences and each make our own deal with life.

I would rather wash the floor in the peace and quiet of my own home anyday than commute daily in a train. There is absolutely not a doubt in my mind as to my preference. Others feel quite the reverse. There is no explanation or justification needed for our preference as to the lesser of those two evils.

I think mixing up breastfeeding housework/chores is a bit
bf isn't a chore or a horrible burden or (god help me) a shackle is a really unpleasant suggestion and reflects a lot about the person making that connection and their experiences perhaps, rather than making any general point about women's experience as a whole

I used to read The Economist from cover to cover every week when I was exclusively breastfeeding DD (it was light and wouldn't hurt her if I dropped it). I am not nearly as well informed about current affairs these days!

I think that people have been talking about their own experiences surely? I was taught to cook very well by my mother (my parents were the traditional type), and my dh has taught himself as an adult. Sadly lots of people do lack this basic skill, and it is certainly one of the reasons why some people have poor diets. Basic household management (mainly budgeting) is also something that a lot of people seem to struggle with, a lot of the reason why home cooking is cheaper and can be easier is buying and cooking in bulk, but you do have to plan ahead. We have saved lots of money by buying a breadmaker and making our own bread, but it did require having the money to buy the machine.

Personally I found breastfeeding easy (and although I didn't always enjoy it, never painful). Life was just as chaotic when I switched to ff, and sleep only improved when my children decided to sleep for longer. Oh, and I never found cloth nappies difficult, because dh dealt with them! Of course other people will have different experiences, depending on many things (income, circumstances, opportunities, location, health, personality etc etc).

I do think that we can be sucked in by the "perfect" mother ideal though. I just didn't think the things cited in the article were particularly perfect.

I sometimes feel that bf is a burden.

A lot of things are or can be temporarily.
Bottle feeding is surely a burden too sometimes-can't really see in long term how it is more liberating to have to go and buy formula and bottles, make them up, clean them and so on.

I like the comment about the Economist Bonsoir.I agree, sitting down gave me time to do so much reading and my sister did most of her studying for professional exams breastfeeding her children in the comfort of her large bed.

SGB, you do come put with some utter nonsense on these threads, you really do

'Articles about the joys of 'homemaking' always have to include some rubbish about 'feeling sorry' for women who are not interested in domestic slavery, and stuff about how 'fulfilling' it is to be a household appliance.'

Give us examples please.

'The cupcake, delicious as it is, stands as the symbol of a whole load of weirdness, wishful thinking and guilt about being a better mother'

I think that is SO VERY true. And CAKE STANDS too, a whole extra bucket of weirdness

Also bit unfair to say she's 'at it' again - she points out v wisely and sensibly why she hates the sahm v the other, and why it's unhelpful.

It's not an attack on anyone.

I'm inclined to agree with her too. Except I wonder how much of it is REAL. All that poncy 50s housekeeping stuff - the bunting, cake stands, Cath Kidston dustpan and brushes. I can't believe anyone who owns a Cath Kidston dustpan and brush does their own cleaning.

It's not a fucking cupcake, it's a fairycake anyway.
It takes about 5 minutes to make a batch if one is so inclined.

So agree with you re the fact it's a fairycake.

Bloody cupcakes my arse

Of course people who buy themselves Cath Kidston dustpan and brushes do their own cleaning - you'd hardly bother to spend the money on pretty stuff if you had a cleaner.

That is precisely why there is a large market for pretty domestic cleaning and cooking etc items in England, and not in France - in England affluent women often do their own cleaning (through choice), in France affluent women never do.

Fairy cakes. Even the name is enough to make you wonder.

I've got a Cath Kidston plastic bag holder which I am mending as the elastic has gone. (After I have done that i shall resew buttons onto my duvet cover.)
I also have some very fetching CK china mugs.

I generally like to surround myself with pretty things-particulalry so if they are objetcs with a utilitarian purpose.

Oh God moondog you are reminding me that I got out my duvet covers and have 5 buttons to sew on to various duvet covers and pillowcases. Plus buttons on stuff of DD's...

I don't know many affluent English women who do their own cleaning, honest.

Not that I think doing your own cleaning is somehow superior.

See. I wonder Bonsoir. I think the buying of pretty brushes, ironic 50s pinnies and funky cake tins says either 'guilt' or perhaps, 'if I buy these lovely Janet and John retro products, I will feel a bit better about the fact I'm clearly not supplying the wholesome childhood of my 70s.'

Even the Ladybird books have got in on the act.

Tis very therapeutic and gives one a great sense of satisfaction.
I like going through my inherited (from grandmother) button box and finding a match.

Guilt?
Why do women go on about guilt all the time and huff and puff about peopel or things making them feel guilty.

It's such tosh.
Feel guilty if you want to.
Don't if you don't.

lol. I don't think anyone is huffing or puffing are they?

guilt is wildly helpful as a rule, I agree, but it does seem to creep up on people. As annoying as that might be. Pesky thing, guilt.

No, it's nothing to do with guilt. It's called the marketing of nostalgia - people buy that stuff because they find it pretty and it reminds them of a past, real or imagined, that was a kinder and more gentle place than they inhabit now.

Of course, when they get the product out of the shop and into their own home, much of the feelgood factor is lost. Which is why nostalgia marketing is a very difficult long term value proposition.

Can you tell I used to do this professionally?

Yes, you're right. It is nostalgia absolutely but I really think there's something else in the mix.

It's not just a sickness for gentler times - it's a yearning too that says, if I have this retro stuff, I'll be more of a housewife than I am, a better home keeper, I'll be Betty from Mad Men. Hah