India Knight at it again

[EdgarAllenSnow]

here she goes

although she seems to be quoting the other lady, Elisabeth Badinter, i think she doesn't weight this piece particularly evenly... despite her conclusion being 'whatever does it for you is what you should do' for their mothering choices, the picture painted of breastfeeding cloth-nappy using own-puree food making types (such as, haha, myself) is not a pretty one.

Personally the above 3 options save me countless amounts of money every year (ok, about £2k - 1k booby milk, £500 nappies £500 using cheap veg/ home cooking rather than 80p per jar baby food - so not countless) Feminism has nothing to do with it.

"I fed my babies home-cooked food precisely because I was lazy. "

Me too Cory. Has had the downside that 18-mo DD3 thinks my plate is her plate and vice versa, so she nicks what she wants off mine, then replaces it with half-chewed bits of things she doesn't fancy. Am thinking of changing places at the table with DH....

The danger with the Badinter "philosophy" is that France creates a nation of adults with no domestic or relationship skills at all. The adulation of those who go to the most prestigious grandes écoles is such that practical life skills are devalued and omitted almost entirely from education, be that at school or home.

And then you get families where neither adult has a clue about anything other than their jobs... and all domestic and relationship skills are subcontracted to a Filipina...

I breast fed my two till they were about 15 months old because I was (am!) lazy. All that faffing around with measuring out formula seemed all too much.

I'm also a lazy SAHM. I think the article has a point: I'm exhausted doing the odd batch of cupcakes, providing an after-school homework support service and slinging a decent meal on the table in the evenings. There is no earthly way I could work and perform any home duties as well.

And those people who says "dh/dp does this, he does that" - some of us have had the bad luck or mismanagement to land ourselves with partners who leave the house at 6am and don't return until 9.

I think she has a point actually.

When I went back to work FT I couldn;t work out how on earth I could express and continue BF (this was 15 years ago and had no support re expressing) so dd went on formula. I also think I would have found it difficult to have cloth nappies and also launder them in an ecologically sound manner (i.e. no tuble drier) pkus work 40+ hours a week.

I have always fed dd what I have eatan (out of laziness and distinct distaste for the shite in jars) and still cook from scratch a lot, however I have never baked a cupcake in my life and do not intend to start. Have experienced a few pursed lipped looks when have sent in batch of Tesco cakes to school bake sales as opposed to making my own.

And the one domestic job which I hate, loathe, despise and rant about is the recycling. I only do it actually because I have to (limitred bin collections) but when I swill out the food bin at the end of the week I feel soul destroyed. I truly would much rather hurl it all into one bin and be done.

If I had another baby and went back to work when baby 3 months old like did with dd (unlikely) I would probably use disposable nappies out of sheer laziness and convenience. And agree re it is not as easy to have DP's to do equal share - I am out of the housr 50 hours a week, DP is more like 70. So franky the domestic burden is mine. And it suits me to make that burden as light as possible.

GetOrf - I have every sympathy with families where both adults work FT - of course you cannot devote as much time to domesticity (in its multiple manifestations) as in families where only one adult works. I have girlfriends with super busy jobs, lots of lengthy international travel etc who willingly pay lots of money over to other people to man the domestic ship. That's their choice and if their family is happy with that choice, that is great for all of them.

However, I think that the (Badinter) idea that all adults should and can work FTOH all the time and that all childcare and domesticity should be bought in/outsourced is a very dangerous one. I know lots of families in that scenario in Paris who cannot for the life of them work out why they are so unhappy when they are (supposedly) ticking all the boxes of the ideal lifestyle...

I agree with India Knight.

There are a wide variety of parenting/motherhood styles and I think the article is valid in saying that there is no single right way to do it and that we should all stand by our own choices. So many of the contributions on this thread are very apologetic about using formula, jars or disposable nappies.... why is that? Because they've been made to feel that this choice is a poor one or that it makes them 'lazy' or inadequate. Surely, feminism would say we respect everyone's chosen parenting methods.... not bully them into conformity?

Surely, feminism would say we respect everyone's chosen parenting methods.... not bully them into conformity?

I think that is too simplistic. All choices we make involve compromise/sacrifice/dilemma/conflict of interest and it is best that we be aware of the choices we have not made and the reasons for that, rather than saying "everything goes".

It doesn't bother me to say that I made the choice to earn less money in order to take more care of my family and home. It doesn't bother me if my best friend says that she made the decision to earn more money and that, as a consequence of that, she must spend less time on her family and home. But we are both aware of our individual choices and the things we have foresaken as well as the things we have gained.

It's also true that a lot of this eco-organic faffery is an indulgence for the middle classes and simply not practical for the poor, particularly the working poor. If yo uare doing a 40+ hour week on the minimum wage you haven't got the time or the money to hunt out lovely farmers' market ingredients (and if you haven't got a car, transporting sacks of organic veg is a bit of a problem), you probably haven't got any space to grow your own veg...

I don't think being ecologically-minded is an indulgence for the middle-classes (which is akin to Elisabeth Badinter's line that ecology is passing fashion). We are all going to have to rethink our lives to be less car dependent and to eat food that is grown closer to home. Obviously, the richer you are, the more able you are to make ecological choices on your own rather than waiting for the system you live in (the State and capitalist interests) to get up to speed so that an ecological lifestyle is available to all).

Oh come on SGB, who actually goes to farmer's markets?

Poorer people may not be able to buy all organic stuff etc as it is much more expensive, but they can cook fresh food for the same price as junk.

Potatoes, onions, carrots, pasta and lentils etc are all very cheap foods and can be bought in any supermarket.

It's cheaper to clean with vinegar/ baking soda etc than to buy bottles of Flash etc.

I'm MC as all get out and I don't go to farmer's markets, I go to sainsbury's like a normal person.

When I was less skint and not working weekends I used to go to farmers' markets sometimes...
But the thing about cleanign with vinegar and lemon juice etc is not only will your house ming like a chip shop but it is a lot harder in terms of effort and time - and this is exactly what the article was on about, that the burden of all this sort of labour-intensive crap invariably falls on women and is constatnly being peddled as something they should learn to love or their wombs will shrivel up.

'all this sort of labour intensive crap invariably falls on women'

It might do if you are stupid enough to be involved with a man who doesn't pull his weight (although there are also many women who don't pull their weight-MN seems full of slatterns)

Life is made up of desirable and not so desirable parts. Grown ups deal with both.

I personally take pride in having a nice clean house and cooking proper food for my children-not to make nayone else feel bad or to martyr myself. I do it because I want to and it makes me and the people I love happy.

so tell me, WHY is it unfeminist to stay at home with children? why is the only "feminist" option to go back to paid work as soon as possible?
feminism was supposed to give women choice. actual choice, not just the choice to go back to paid work full time or er that's it actually because anything else is letting the side down
bollocks to that

It's not.
It's just fuckwit journalists talking shite.
Do what you want.
Noone else gives a hoot really about anyone else's dull domestic arrangements, they really don't.

It's not unfeminist to stay at home with your ghildren. It is unfeminist to insist that being a SAHM makes you more of a real woman than a WOHM, or that women who find housewifery maddeningly dull need therapy or to 'grow up' and accept that they are less than fully human, as too many of these 'domestic goddess' types do. Articles about the joys of 'homemaking' always have to include some rubbish about 'feeling sorry' for women who are not interested in domestic slavery, and stuff about how 'fulfilling' it is to be a household appliance.

Another "Earthmother" who managed to breastfeed, wash nappies and feed my babies homecooked food, and work.

Why?

Because I'm lazy, breastfeeding (aside from health issues) saved me from the hassle of washing bottles etc. Cloth nappies meant I never had to rush out at 9pm to buy a pack of nappies cause we'd run out (because when the nappy bucket was full we just threw it all in the washing machine, clicked "go" and walked away, hardly time consuming!), and giving my girls home cooked food meant I didn't have to arse about thinking what to give them, they just ate what we were eating.

How?

Because DP does some of the domestic stuff too. I'm not his mother, so it isn't my job to look after him and the kids are his as well, not just mine, so he does some of the domestic crap that has to be done to keep our home running.

And yes, I'm a Feminist!!

i've only read badinter rehashed. she's been recycled herself by so many columnists poor thing.

i think her point was that there is little choice for women because they are guilted into heavy duty mothering. like it is a bad thing.

mothering is work

regardez-moi, je suis cleverer than you silly breeder

India knight has a bee in her bonnet about lots of motherhod related things, she's always writing negative things about breastfeeding, not very supportive to women's efforts in general on this topic, it's obviously personal with her for some reason.

Whilst I actually quite like her, although lots of what she writes really irks me,I think she is quite barmy!

reading this thread has made me realise i really need to force / teach DH to cook / put washing on.
If you have a traditional split of roles in your house some of the things listed can be wearying. one reason why i am going to be a SAHM is that if DH does housework it is a favour to me. I don't think i'll ever change him (he's 46) so i might as well have a more even division of labour (and less money )
i hate it when people suggest that breasfeeding is earthmothery or antifeminist though. it is the best thing ever imo.

lol at fishie's link title
anyway, bf for six months???
that's practically the nursery slopes...

I agree with the point of view expressed by the article. The entire green, organic, ec-friendly thing just seems like a step backward to the 1950s for women. My mother and MIL (and my DW) express similar views.