How terribly sad - 2 under 5's found dead in sussex.

[Rombouts]

here

Indeed, UQD. If it's a man doing something like this, he's an evil family annihilator doing it to get back at the mother. If it's a woman then she's a sad, tortured individual who deserves compassion and understanding.

Surely anyone who kills their own children has serious mental health issues whether they've got an X-chromosome or not.

UQD, as soon as I read about this I had a good idea that the thread(s) about it would be just as you describe.

It's sexism.

Some parents who kill their children do it because they are in mental turmoil and some because they are wicked. Those of us who don't have enough information to know which is which should reserve judgement, imho.

agree with UQD

However I'm not entirely sure of Snorbs last line. Sadly I don't believe that all parents who kill their own child have serious mental health issues

For what reason do you think this woman would do this? There has been no news on what her motive could have been, or if she was suffering with mental health problems.

Do you think it's that she was finding it difficult to care for them, or revenge at ex-h, etc.

I'm not judging her or anything, I'm just curious as to the sort of thing that would drive someone to this.

Do you think she tried to kill herself too but failed and that's why she went to police?

Agree with UQD

Some MNers have incredibly sexist views

Killing ones own children is a horrendous crime no matter the motive, and I think personally its a sexless crime. Whether the mum or the dad did it is immaterial in my mind. The mere fact a PARENT was capable for whatever reason of killing their own child is just beyond tragic. Mental health issues or not, the only person or people deserving sympathy are the victims and the other parent who now has to deal with such tragic heart ache. I have no sympathy for anyone who kills a child. I apologize if that's harsh, or too black and white.

It's true I think it was probably more of a mixed reaction, as Duelingfanjo says, and it's the ones who posted the anti-men stuff who stay in the memory. For almost everyone it's a crime they simply can't envisage.

According to newspaper report I saw yesterday (either Times or Telegraph), the mother thought she might lose the children as she had previously been reported to the police for domestic violence (that seems to tally what it says in the Sun about her vicious attacks on partner). So she killed them rather than let him have them.

Now imagine the sympathy we'd all feel if this had been the father.

she lost a little one at 15 months to sudden infant cot death
perhaps she felt lives were no longer sacred.
plus not sure if we lived with teens, who i feel most sadness for

i feel the same way about Hogan as i do this woman.

i always remember that case few years ago when the man gassed his sons in the car and killed himself,where he got the eldest son to call mum to say goodbye as he was doing it.

my ex h said after that that if i dared leave him,then he'd do the same to our children. thank god cafcass and the judge at our contact case have seen he's capable. they have ordered NO contact for him...but it still terrifies me

this is so sad ,she must of had menta lhealth issues poor children

cory, the vitriol would be uncontained.

I hope that this thread gets pulled up next time there are cries of 'that bastard would rather kill them then have his wife have them'.

I note that those who shout loudest on those threads are notably absent on this one.

I met a father who later killed himself and his young son. He had recently split up with the mother and was struggling to come to terms with it. He was obviously besotted with his son and showed us pics of him. He was clingy, needed and super-emotional to the friend of mine that was a friend of his. I think it's clear he had some mental health issues but I have no sympathy for him at all. Not one iota.

The people I have enormous sympathy for are the little boy who died and his mother, who has been in hell ever since.

I feel exactly the same about this case.

Cot death at 15 months is pretty rare.

I wonder if she'll be investigated for the death of her first child too? I hope so.

"Some parents who kill their children do it because they are in mental turmoil and some because they are wicked. Those of us who don't have enough information
to know which is which should reserve judgement, imho."

I think it's fair enough to judge. The woman has aledgedly killed her children - an unforgiveable act as far as I'm concerned, mental illness or not. How many people have sympathy for Ian Brady, or Peter Sutcliffe? Both of them are considered mentally ill and committed some horrific crimes as a result.

The woman was obviously lucid enough to hand herself into the police station, perhaps she even inflicted the wounds on herself to make mental illness a more plausible excuse.

Cory if it had been a man then the hanging brigade would have been out in force and rightly so. It's because people have this "all men are bastards, all women are victims" mentality that women like this seem to be able to gain sympathy for their crimes.

"Cot death at 15 months is pretty rare." It is but it does happen. In fact there is a mumsnetter who lost her dd to SIDS when she was two.

"I wonder if she'll be investigated for the death of her first child too? I hope so." Interesting point. I'd imagine it's something that might be brought up now, having murdered two children it's not beyond the relms of possibility that the first one might not have died from natural causes, although how they could prove that I don't know.

I read that the first child died at 10 not 15 months.

She should be judged no differently to a man committing the same act.

I'm sure the death of another child will be investigated again in the light of what has happened . May well have been natural causes but I'm sure it will be normal procedure to re-investigate

I think the difference between men and women killing children is that generally men kill their children when they lose control over contact and marriage issues - it is generally a revenge issue when they are unable to get to the Mother in any other way. And women can often feel that they are 'saving' their children from pain by doing this. These are general rules and there obviously are exceptions but these themes do recurr in infanticide.

The point here is that anyone who can leap over all their own morals and instincts and take the life of their own child is mentally disturbed.

And really, it matter not what the motive was does it? Doesn't even matter why she did it because two little babies are dead in a car boot and no doubt have spent the last few months living with a really unhinged Mother. Really sad that noone stepped in and helped her.

Is that documented, or is it just how these things are rationalised?

How can you possibly say that 'no one stepped in and helped her?' We have absolutely no way of knowing what support she may have been offered, or whether she was offered support which she chose to reject.

It's that sort of comment that exemplifies this sexism. Women being seen as victims who needed help, whereas men are the baddies who act out of revenge.

Agree with violethill. When a man is divorced amidst allegations of abusing his partner, people's first concern is usually not how "noone stepped in and helped him". Here it was a woman- and immediately posters start thinking well, she must have been a victim, because statistically women are. This isn't about statistics. It's about the actions of one woman: she will have to be judged on those.

And I agree with Fallen's suggestion: when a man commits violence against his children it is assumed that he is rational and acting out of revenge. How do you actually know that a woman in the same situation feels she is saving her children from pain: of course, she's going to say that in court if that is a known way for women to get out of trouble.

In this case, the only allegations of pain and consequent damage to the children are of that caused by the woman.

'This isn't about statistics. It's about the actions of one woman: she will have to be judged on those.'

Exactly.

Some people seem to forget that sexism is rooted in those throwaway generalisations: 'Oh poor woman, she must have needed support', 'Evil bastard man, he must have wanted revenge'.

Every situation is unique, so every situation should be judged for what it is. In this case, the police clearly feel that a charge of murder is appropriate - that the woman intended to kill or seriously harm her children. None of us know any more than that. The victims here are the children, their father and other extended family.

Really sad that noone stepped in and helped her

Comment would have been offered if it were a man or a woman. For whatever reason parents kill their children, they clearly are desperate people. Even if a woman or man kill out of revenge it is not a rational act is it? All these people need help despite their sex or motive. Help could have saved these and other children - it is not that i think this woman is a victim, far from it, apparantly the accusations of domestic violence were levelled at her and this was the reason her husband reported his concern over her having custody of the children. But of course these sorts of accusations are chucked about daily to one another by parting couples so I wonder if anyone took them seriously? And domestic violence towards a partner 9as long as a child is not physically hurt in the process) is not really taken into account in custody/contact cases, only when it is extrememly serious.

Just really sad for everyone in this family, it is a tragedy of epic proportion. Imagine how this is for the grand-parents too? Horrible

'Help could have saved these and other children' - actually what would have saved these children is not being killed by their mother.

I still don't get why anyone feels qualified to comment when they don't actually know whether support was offered, whether it was accepted etc.

If any agency failed in any way, then we will know in the course of time - and where agencies such as social services or police fail in their duty, then of course they should be accountable for their failings. But actually in a case of murder, it is the murderer's responsibility.

"The woman was obviously lucid enough to hand herself into the police station"

"lucid" is an interesting one if MH issues are partly to blame for this.

The day that H was actually admitted to a psychiatric hospital (in the evening) as an emergency admission he'd spent the entire day job hunting and seemingly very lucid.

Obviously there is also the possibility that she was "sane" at the time and this was what men in these cases are immediately labelled as - a revenge/evil incident.

Desperately sad for all the family of those poor little children no matter "what" the circumstances are surrounding it.