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News

Mother 'not clever enough to raise child' has baby snatched by social workers

405 replies

Heated · 22/01/2010 09:53

story
What do we think?

OP posts:
johnhemming · 24/01/2010 16:45

I don't have the time to respond to every single point made on the forum. Hence you cannot read anything into the fact that I haven't responded.

I am not quite sure the context you are referring to, but assuming is was the Birmingham case I was referring to about breast feeding. Basically the assessment was complete and total garbage, but the system accepts that sort of rubbish.

The baby was quite well fed until taken into care when the baby started losing weight.

wahwah · 24/01/2010 16:46

Cheers, JH. No need for link, I actually do know about this, thanks!

lovechoc · 24/01/2010 16:48

Sad story but shock horror(!) it's Fife Council...

Grandhighpoohba · 24/01/2010 16:55

Can I point out that Fife is in Scotland, and therefore, as JH well knows, the child protection system operates under a different law to the rest of the UK. I think it is pretty dishonest to use this case as an example of the "evil" system, when you are perfectly aware that the Scottish system works differently, and you have admitted on past threads that it is different, and better than the system in England. The family Courts do not make decisions about whether a child is placed in care in Scotland. JH knows this, yet continues to use this case as an example. Doesn't make you sound particularly credible.

staggerlee · 24/01/2010 16:55

What an insightful critique of the assessment and the 'system' jh.

Lets face it you are very selective about the points you do respond to. For example,if anyone asks you provide evidence for your extraordinary assertions you just don't seem to have time to respond. Shame really

MANATEEequineOHARA · 24/01/2010 16:58

'Quite well fed'! I am right then. You are personally distorting stories for your own personal anti-social worker agenda!

johnhemming · 24/01/2010 16:59

grandhighpoohbah is right to a point. The system in Scotland is substantially better than that in England.

staggerlee misses the point that the rules in terms of confidentiality make providing proper evidence of malpractise difficult. There is, however, to be a formal enquiry by the Council of Europe to which a full data set will be provided.

The breast feeding case, however, that I have been referring to is one in Birmingham. I haven't noticed Birmingham moving to Scotland recently.

MANATEEequineOHARA · 24/01/2010 17:04

Oops. Too much use of the word 'personally' or its variants in my previous post.

Grandhighpoohba · 24/01/2010 17:07

If I am right, JH, why are you discussing this case as if it highlights problems in the English system. It tells you nothing about the English system, it is COMPLETELY seperate. A panel of volunteers from the public would have decided whether this child could stay with his mother. Had you not encouraged them to run away.

ceres · 24/01/2010 17:08

"Basically the assessment was complete and total garbage, but the system accepts that sort of rubbish."

why don't you tell us exactly what it was about the mother breastfeeding on demand that was an issue for the social workers involved? and also what were the dangers identified for the 2 babies being on the same mat?

because we all know that there is nothing wrong with breastfeeding on demand....unless, as others have said, the baby wasn't demanding so the mother wasn't feeding.

and i may be missing something (after all, i am a social worker!!) but i can't see what is wrong with 2 babies playing on the same mat.......so long as the mat is big enough for 2 babies, one isn't a newborn and the other a toddler trampling all over the newborn, the mat isn't palced on a table, the mat isn't covered in filth.....need i go on??

the point is, if breastfeeding on demand and 2 babies on 1 mat were mentioned in a report then they will have been mentioned in the context of risk to the child.

staggerlee · 24/01/2010 17:17

I haven't missed any point jh-I wait with bated breath for your updates about a number of cases where children have apparently been taken into care for the most flimsy and spurious of reasons.

I would ask why you think it is appropriate to comment on these cases in the first place given that you can never evidence any of your allegations (which to quite a few of us posting here seem unbelievable). You make astonishing claims that you present as the absolute truth and then say that you cannot comment further due to confidentiality.

I think you do this quite deliberately in order to push your agenda forward

NanaNina · 24/01/2010 17:51

Well I am heartened to see that many posters are now able to share my frustration and incredulity at JH and his ridiculous and inflammatory comments about the child protection system.

Someone asks why he is not using his authority to raise the issue of underfunding in SSD. He's not interested in this issue - he sees the entire system as evil and so why would be be wanting this evil system to be better resourced.

And yes as so many of you say,he can never provice evidence for anything he says. He says he has seen the assessment of the parents in the BF case. He mentions the breast feeding incident and 2 babies on the same mat............now that assessment will run into 6/7/8 + typed pages and yes comments may have been made about breast feeding and the play mat but he has quoted them entirely out of context - and makes NO mention of the rest of the assessment. Of course he doesn't, because he closes his mind to anything that could look as though there was concern for the baby as this would not support his claim about the evil system where everyone involved is in a conspiracy to remove a child from the parent just for the hell of it - or to get the baby adopted. Much easier to say the assessment is "garbage" and support his flawed and twisted notions.

In one way it doesn't really matter because the judge will decide whether the assessment is "garbage" and I suspect he/she will be in a better position than JH to make such a judgement. There will be numerous other assessments and reports to guide the judge towards a decision to protect the child and JH and his distorted nonsense will have no place in the proceedings.

I would like to ask JH (but know I will not get a sensible answer) what are his qualifications/experience/expertise in the area of child protection. On what basis is he able to make the decision that a child is not at risk of significant harm and decide that his involvement will be to protect the parents by helping them to flee the country, and leave the baby possibly unprotected. This is precisely what he does based on presumably the account of the parents, which will be highly likely to be distorted. I am amazed that an MP can behave in this way and moreover that his actions are in the public domain and do not raise concern within the Lib Dem Party. I think this says a lot about that particular party. He must at the very least be bringing his party into disrepute.

Anyway it's happened again - whenever there is a thread like this (and sometimes he starts them himself with some nonsencical scaremongering) up pops JH and the "debate" is then ended as it entails his supporters and his critics arguing with him and each other.

Oscy · 24/01/2010 17:57

I wonder in cases like this, the full facts can never be in the public domain (and rightly so). However, if this case were to follow previous similar ones then I think it would be fair to assume (and it is only an assumption) that there was a history of such severe neglect/abuse of previous children that it led SS to watch for any future pregnancies and take preventative action in order to minimise trauma to any more babies.

Just a thought.

And I too would be interested in when exactly people feel children should actually be taken into care - let's talk specifics here: broken bones? starvation? abandonment for long periods? not changing nappies? What specific level of neglect has to happen before it is obvious that a parent is not capable of caring for a child?

Another question: if for example it has happened previously (let's say twice previously) and children have been removed by ss, what would YOU do if that parent presented as pregnant again?
I am truly interested in any answers.

Oscy · 24/01/2010 18:01

LeonieDelt I am sorry to read about your experiences.

LeninGrad · 24/01/2010 18:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NanaNina · 24/01/2010 18:35

Oscy - the wording of the legislation that deals with child protection is that care proceedings should be initiated in cases where a child is "being significantly harmed" or is "in danger of being significantly harmed." Clearly there are numerous ways in which a child can be significantly harmed e.g. physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, neglect etc. If a child is physically/sexually abused or negelcted then he is clearly being emotionally abused too.

The thing is that in many cases there is concern about a child/family but there is not sufficient evidence. Yes it is there when there are broken bones, bruises, cuts etc but this is often not the case. Concerns often centre around low level neglect, as in the parent not being physically and emotionally available to a child. In these cases, the soc workers job is to monitor the situation and in the meantime provide whatever support is necessary to improve the family circumstances/parenting and hopefully keep the child within his own family. Sometimes the monitoring goes on too long and the signs are not picked up (as in Baby Peter) and there is a tragedy.

It is a very difficult and stressful job working with these kinds of families and every sw knows a child is best with his own family if at all possible. Most social workers will try anything and everything to prevent having to remove a child and apply to the courts for a Care Order, but sadly that is sometimes the only way to protect a child.

You mention about previous incidents of abuse and neglect and other children being removed. yes of course this has to raise alarm bells and each case is judged individually of course but I can think of many occasions where the only way is to remove a baby at birth from parents where there has been systematic abuse/neglect of other children in the family. If the parents have not been able to improve their parenting ability and as in some cases they are still abusing drink/drugs, then there is every reason to think that the new baby will be in danger of significant harm and the only way to protect him is to remove him from the parents and apply to the courts for a Care Order.

I think the thing to bear in mind is removal of children is always a last resort and the SSD have a duty to provide support in whatever way possible to keep the family together. However when this is patently not keeping the children safe, the bullet has to be bitten and children removed. This of course is just the beginning of the process, as there follows lengthy assessments of the parents by a variety of professionals and the whole matter is heard over several days in court. All professionals will need to be able to evidence in court exactly what they are saying and why they are making a particular recommendation.

It is a lengthy process and the parents are legally represented- their lawyers will be rigorous in their cross examination of all professionals involved in the case and at the end of it all the Judge will make the decision.

There has been a lot of criticism of the system on MN and of course it isn't totally foolproof (nothing in life is) but it's fair and in my experience nobody rides rough shod over the parents. The main thing is that the best interests of the children must be served and yes sometimes this means that parents are angry when their children are not returned to them, but children have a right to live their life free of fear - you only have one childhood.

Sorry too long and a bit rambling but you seem to be asking genuine questions.

NanaNina · 24/01/2010 18:40

Leningrad - please don't get anxious at what JH says - he talks nonsense - complete and utter nonsense. All the social workers and some family lawyers and barristers who post are fully aware of this. This of course is the problem because some posters think because he is an MP he must be giving accurate information. He isn't - he has an axe to grind based on his personal experience so please don't believe anything he says.

I can absolutely assure you that social services are not interested whether children are bottle fed/breast fed, nor to what age they are breast fed. JH quotes stupid things like this just to continue his scaremongering campaign that the evil system snatches children for spurious reasons. It isn't true. He should be ashamed of himself but of course he isn't because he is obsessed with what he perceives as fighting the evil systm and protecting adults at the expense of innocent children.

LeninGrad · 24/01/2010 18:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Oscy · 24/01/2010 18:45

Thanks Nananina, a very educational post (for me, not in UK so not au fait with family law there).
I am quite taken aback at the level of bile directed at ss on this thread - yes, there are mistakes made but ime in favour of the parents/family generally rather than the other way round. I am also quite amazed/amused/shocked at how an elected member of parliament (as I believe Mr Hemmings to be?) can post on something as sensitive as this and be so vitriolic towards a system he should (in my opinion) be slightly more objective about, if only as an MP. This does not excuse or explain any failings previously by SS but surely a blanket approach of "they can do no right" serves absolutely nobody? Least of all the children in question.
I think it is hugely important that there are people like JH asking all the right questions of the right people. But I baulk when it is appears that there is serious concerns about parenting abilities but yet there is an apparent persistence in keeping a child with its clearly incapable parents (not referring to this case, but in general).

LeninGrad · 24/01/2010 18:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

johnhemming · 24/01/2010 18:54

The case I have been discussing in this thread most recently is one which is Birmingham, England case not a Dunfermine, Fife, Scotland case.

What I referred to was a parenting assessment in a parenting centre.

I am vitriolic towards a system that does a lot of damage to children whilst protecting some.

What is often ignored is the large number of forced adoptions that get disrupted (aka fail) with the child returning to care.

The evidence from Alan Rushton's work is that the behavioural problems of the children are not linked to treatment by the birth parents. That does not mean necessarily that taking them into care was the wrong decision, but it makes it clear that it is the care system that has caused the psychological damage.

LeninGrad · 24/01/2010 19:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

johnhemming · 24/01/2010 19:15

What we need to do is to look at the system from the child's perspective, not just on a decision by decision basis, but on a total childhood/lifetime basis as well.

We also need to look at the cause of family failures. Bad Housing is a frequent cause of difficulties.

MANATEEequineOHARA · 24/01/2010 20:15

John Hemming, you answered me in a dismissive way when I asked about the point at which a child should be taken into care. Oscy's 17.57 post asks again, and with more detail. It would be great if you could answer her direct question.

hobbgoblin · 24/01/2010 22:01

JH hasn't answered me at all on any of the threads where I have commented on his views.

It's a little concerning that he has managed to lose my interest given that I am both a Lib Dem voter and a supporter of some serious questioning taking place as to the actions of SWs in general.

JH, for example...

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