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News

Mother 'not clever enough to raise child' has baby snatched by social workers

405 replies

Heated · 22/01/2010 09:53

story
What do we think?

OP posts:
NanaNina · 28/01/2010 12:09

Agree Manatee - I am glad that the parents are being given the opportunity to prove (or disprove) that they are capable of caring for their baby. However the link JH has posted is from the Daily Mail and anyone who believes what they print - well - I'll keep my thoughts to myself. It is a very very biased account given to them by the parents and as usual social services cannot comment on their side of the case because of confidentiality. I have always believed that these matters should be entirely confidential but since seeing all the sw bashing on these threads I have started to wish that SSD could put their side of the story in the public domian, but then I suppose people wouldn't believe it and would prefer to believe JH and his ilk and the DM.

JH - I think you've done the straw man thing - it's getting tedious and it isn't relevant. And you are wrong again the report on BCC did not say 50% of practice was poor. It commented that some managers were felt to be too inexperienced to hold management positions. No figures were given. Don't make up things just to support your hypothesis.

Dilemma - you ask how I know JHs comments are inaccurate. Well I do absolutely know that children are not removed from parents because a relative calls the social worker fat - do you believe this. I also know that a parent would not fail a parenting assessment on one issue alone, as he states, i.e. because she wanted to breast feed on demand. Do you believe that any judge would grant on Order on this basis. Come on do you really - yes or no. If you do then I fear you must be as irrational as JH.

I also know that children's behavioural problems are in the main linked to the parents parenting capacity not as JH asserts, that they are caused by the care system. I also know that lawyers acting for parents don't "roll over" and agree with social workers because they are only interested in paying their mortgage and don't give a toss about defending parents.

I could go on.............

dilemma456 · 28/01/2010 13:00

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dilemma456 · 28/01/2010 13:24

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johnhemming · 28/01/2010 13:35

I have overstated the good at 10% and understated the poor at 50%.

NanaNina · 28/01/2010 14:25

Dilemma - thank you for the link. I have seen enough of the practice in BCC to think there is a problem BUT I still maintain this is not the fault of individual social workers and this is how it is being presented. Many of them struggle against all the odds - overloaded with ridiculously large caseloads and insufficent support, and trying to take over the work of workers on sick leave etc etc. I just think it isn't fair to talk of 50% of social workers being "poor" without looking at the reasons why this has come about. Birmingham is one of the most deprived inner city regions in the country and the council's childrens services are really struggling - I have see the evidence BUT I still think you have to look at the reasons for this, rather than just think that social workers have "poor practoce" - it is going to get worse because they are axing jobs.

JH why aren't you bringing up the issue of the cuts in childrens services in BCC and how this will exacerbate the worrying situation ??

Dilemma - you are I fear missing my point. You asked how I know that JHs posts are inaccurate. He actually stated in a post on MN that a child was removed because the granny had called the social worker fat. He gave no other details and did not elaborate and he was challenged by social workers and lawyers alike but he made no response as is often the case. He also stated emphatically that another child was removed because they failed the assessment on the issue of BF on demand. What was actually presented to the court is neither here nor there, the point I was making in reponse to your Question "how do I know that JHs post are inaccurate" . You must be able to agree that there will be far far more to these cases than JHs assertions.

I have been doing parenting assessments on an ind basis for 7 years and have to date carried out over 150. It isn't a case of "passing" or "failing" an assessment, it is a case of carrying out a comprehensive assessment based on the Common Assessment Framework, taking into account all of the circumstances and making a recommendation based on the best interests of the child, not the parents. It can be a finely balanced thing and I have had many a sleepless night worrying about these assessments. It is nonsense to say that a parent would "fail" an assessment because she wanted to BF on demand. These are the sorts of things JH wants people to believe to support his hypothesis and it works, because a lot of posters do believe it. It is only social workers and lawyers involved in the family courts who know that this is nonsense.

I absolutely and completely agree with you about residential "care" - I think it is a dreadful way of caring for troubled children. and yes I agree that it exacerbates their problems. In my view all institutionalised care is wrong for any age group, and for troubled teenagers it is just about the worse thing that can happent to them, and it is expensive. I know that these days foster care is the first option for all younger children but it still means that too many teenagers are in res care.

The state is not a good parent but you have to look at why this is. There is a huge shortage of foster carers on a national basis and hence sibling often have to be split up and carers overloaded. Also of course the govt has encourage privatisation and there are numerous independent fostering agencies who charge l.a.s excessive rates though of course the carers get paid more. L.as are forced to "buy" placements from the IFAs when there is no other placement. It doesn't mean that the care is any better, it just means that the carers work for an IFA rather than the la.

You also have to look at the resons why children come into care in the first place and this will sometimes be at parent's request but that tells you a lot about their parenting capacity if they want their child removed and this happens with teenagers far more than many people realise. If children are removed (contrary to what JH believes) it is because they are being abused or neglected in some way, and it surely goes without saying that this means that they will suffer allkinds of anxieties etc that will often manifest themselves in behaviour problems.

I have worked with foster carers over 30 years and have seen the way in which the pre placement experience of children has worsened to much over the years, largely because of drug/drink abuse of the parents. Only on Monday a foster called told me of a 2 yr old placed with her who could only say "Fuck" and his 4 year old brother kept asking whether she was selling the table/chairs etc and when she said NO why do you ask - he said "Well how are you going to pay for your gear then" ..........I could go on but I am criticised for the length of my posts so I will stop.

johnhemming · 28/01/2010 16:12

Citing examples of bad parenting does not counter the argument that there are also bad social workers.

No one has said there should not be a child protection system. The argument instead is that it does not work very well.

Nananina says:
"However I still believe it is not the fault of individual social workers but of the capitalist system in which we live. "

I agree that it is the system that needs to be changed, but there are other capitalist countries which are not in such a mess.

I don't think it has anything to do with capitalism.

duchesse · 28/01/2010 16:14

Poor girl. You can obviously never know the full story without being party to what the SWs know, and I'm loathe to credit the "news"papers with any credibility, but it does sound as though they are both absolutely trying their best for the baby. I can't blame them for running away. What I can't understand is why they SS are not offering in-home support to this family. There must be more to this story than meets the eye, surely?

johnhemming · 28/01/2010 16:32

Mum and baby are together now.

ArthurPewty · 28/01/2010 16:53

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ArthurPewty · 28/01/2010 17:19

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ArthurPewty · 30/01/2010 11:43

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johnhemming · 30/01/2010 15:20

I think they are best left to get on with things at the moment.

dilemma456 · 30/01/2010 21:16

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ArthurPewty · 30/01/2010 21:54

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ArthurPewty · 30/01/2010 22:00

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ceres · 31/01/2010 09:45

irish sensibility?

you might want to have a bit of a google to find out how many children in ireland have gone missing from state care in the last 10 years (over 400 - unaccompanied children), how many have died in state care (22 between 2001 and 2008). you might also be interested in the Roscommon case and the Dunne case, both high profile cases which highlight the inadequacies of the current system in ireland.

also, to put these figures in context remember that ireland is a small country - population approx 4 million.

it is much more difficult to remove a child in ireland because of the rights of the family being enshrined in the constitution. there is nothing in the constitution about the rights of the child. although there is pressure to have a referendum on the rights of the child.

social services in ireland is vastly understaffed and underfunded. very few regions of the country have an out of hours service so access to a social worker is limited to 9-5, mon-fri.

is it any wonder groups such as the one john hemming is involved with recommend that parents flee to ireland?

johnhemming · 31/01/2010 09:52

Birmingham alone lost 61 children in one year. Children also die state in care in England.

Hundreds of children every year in England return to care from adoptive placements an issue that the government turns a blind eye to.

Perhaps the most important issue is the trending upwards in children dying of child abuse and neglect in England.

The system is supposed to act to protect children. The English system, I would say, is worse at this than the Irish.

MANATEEequineOHARA · 31/01/2010 09:53

I'm glad to hear it is going well for them, esp re: breastfeeding, I hope that is really the case though, considering the child was taken at birth for whatever reason I am a bit at 'the best mother in Ireland' comment!

ArthurPewty · 31/01/2010 09:58

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ceres · 31/01/2010 10:16

johnhemming - you are deluded if you think the english system is worse than the irish one.

child protection in ireland is light years behind the uk.

MANATEEequineOHARA · 31/01/2010 12:03

I mean I wonder if it was said at all. It is very hard to know what to believe with this as there is obviously a lot missing from what we are all told.

dilemma456 · 31/01/2010 12:12

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edam · 31/01/2010 12:12

So glad Kerry and her baby are together.

SS stop children being adopted to save money Yet another example of our care system abusing children. I really do wonder which is worse, abusive parents or a life of what we laughably call being 'looked after'.

johnhemming · 31/01/2010 13:24

ceres child protection in ireland is light years behind the uk.

We need mechanisms to test this hypothesis. To me a reasonable good test across jurisdictions is that of the number of children that die from child abuse and/or neglect.

There is very little comparative information. What we can say is that this particular aspect is getting worse in England. England has a far more aggressive child protection system than, for example, Sweden which has one of the best reocrds.

The last international comparison between Countries had twice as many deaths from maltreatment - per capita in England than in Ireland. Since then things have clearly got worse in England, but I don't know about Ireland.

Hence I have good statistical information arguing the situation is worse in England than Ireland. What information does ceres have to argue against this.

ArthurPewty · 31/01/2010 14:12

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