WARNING v upsetting: The Doncaster Boys., who were attacked..

[ElenorRigby]

a case from last year...
Here are the details, according a local paper.
Source

Its not pretty

"THE full horror of the terrifying and brutally violent attack on two young boys by a pair of brothers in secluded woodland in Doncaster last April has been revealed to a shocked courtroom.

A hearing at Sheffield Crown Court was yesterday given full and painfully graphic detail of the sadistic 90-minute attack by the then 10 and 11-year-old siblings involving a variety of weapons including branches, barbed wire, lit cigarettes and heavy rocks, which left one of their victims close to death and the other badly injured and deeply traumatised.

Members of the victims' families sobbed as the court was shown haunting video footage taken by the older brother on a stolen mobile phone midway through the attack. It showed his stricken 11-year-old victim shaking and covered in blood as he was prodded and taunted by the younger of the two brothers.

A child psychiatrist who had interviewed the younger brother later described him as "cold and calculating" in his ability to switch between seemingly good behaviour and acts of violence.

Dr Eileen Vizard told the court the boy represented a "high risk" to the public and warned that without prolonged and successful intervention by specialists he may have the potential to develop psychopathy.

The young perpetrators, now aged 11 and 12, were dressed smartly in shirts and ties and sat passively in the dock as their shocking catalogue of violence was laid out before a High Court judge, Mr Justice Keith.

The pair, who cannot be named for legal reasons, had pleaded guilty at an earlier hearing to counts of causing grievous bodily harm with intent, robbery and intentionally causing a child to engage in a sexual act. Charges of attempted murder were dropped.

The court heard how they came across their two young victims at a playground and lured them to a secluded area with the promise of showing them a dead fox.

Once there, the brothers subjected them to a vicious 90-minute attack using branches, sharpened sticks, barbed wire, broken glass, rocks weighing up to two stone, and pieces of metal.

Both victims were repeatedly hit with tree branches and fists as they lay cowering on the ground, the court heard. Their faces were stamped on and heavy rocks dropped on their heads.

At one stage the battered and bloodied victims were forced to attempt to perform sexual acts together.

Later, one was choked with a metal hoop, the older boy putting his foot on his victim's back "for extra leverage", said Nicholas Campbell QC, prosecuting. The younger victim was strangled with a clothes line.

The same victim eventually sustained a deep wound to his arm, which the older brother forced a lit cigarette into. When the terrified nine-year-old said he needed the toilet, he was forced to urinate on his friend's face.

The court heard that as the attack reached its climax, the younger victim was ordered to kill himself. He repeatedly rammed a sharpened stick into his own mouth before slumping against a tree.

His older friend was left for dead after having part of a broken sink dropped on his head. He could not be interviewed by police until 10 days later due to the seriousness of his injuries.

The court also heard details of a strikingly similar attack carried out by the brothers on a choirboy in Edlington a week earlier.

The court was told how he too was lured to the patch of wasteland, this time with the promise of seeing a "massive toad", and how he was beaten and stamped on. The brothers have pleaded guilty to a charge of assault causing actual bodily harm.

On that occasion their 11-year-old victim was apparently saved from an even worse fate by the intervention of a passer-by. The brothers were identified a few days later and were due to attend a police station on the morning of Saturday, April 3.

Instead, they fled their foster home, and within an hour had begun their second savage attack. The pair are due to be sentenced tomorrow.

The hearing continues."

For most parents the details of case of the depravity is beyond belief.

drlove - they'd been in a foster home for just 25 days, that's far too short a time to expect any sort of positive change to occur surely - even in a child that has fewer issues than these 2?

it was the younger one that intimidated the child psychologist.
whats he going to be like when he`s an adult?

25 days - i didnt see that. it is no time.

drloves - they were in foster care 3 weeks before the attack... It's a bit too late by then for foster care to make any difference I'm afraid. The damage is done in the earlier years.

I agree with Mongolia - we need to stop pointing fingers at Local Authorities and other government bodies. How about taking some responsibility for ourselves Britain?
Enough of the nanny state already!

The thing is, children don't come with a manual, for what is worth I may be a good parent or an awful one. The only way to know if is someone tell me you are doing this wrong, or you are doing this right.

But I think that as a society, we are becoming very fearful of telling other children off, we are afraid to be wacked by the mother even if her children are removing the ears of our own children.

In the oldent times (like when we lived in tribes, and up until some decades ago, etc.) The full society was responsible for the children. Some of the oldies here may have grown in that environment, where if your mother was not there to tell you off, there was a neighbour, a family member or even stranger ready to help you out or tell you off.

But we are becoming too private, too respectful and perhaps, too lenient, we mind our own business, and that,perhaps, may not be such a good thing.

Harpy - yes I read that - but what I'm saying is that 3 children from the same family are now all convicted criminals.

I find it hard to believe that 3 children all from the same family would be born "evil" or "bad" and that their upbringing had no part in what they did.

Pyschopathy and Anti Social Personality Disorder are no diagnosed until adulthood. As the many of the traits of both of them are quite common among adolescents and teenagers.

this recently posted on the Guardian describes the home life of the perpetrators. Sounds like you would really have to stretch a point to describe them as loving parents.

I can't remember which report I read it in now, but definitely read that it was less than a month they'd been in foster care - too little too late to stop this atrocity.

I read that their mother asked them to be placed separately in foster care for fear of what they may do if they were homed together. Doncaster SS ignored her request. They also had contact with their father whilst in foster care as they were found with him on his allotment (used to grow cannabis) after the attack.

I still believe that it can not all be blamed on nurture or nature. It seems to me that this case is an unfortunate accident where the worst of both things intersected.

I don't think anyone is denying that they have to take responsibility for their actions are they?

I think it's too complex to say "right it's your fault because you made the choice"........and not take in account of how and why this happened.

this may sound shocking, but I'm sure there are some MNers children (and I include one of my own 3 DS's in this statement) who given the same background as these children could potentially do something similar.

One of my DS's is easily led, he can be very calculating an mean, he's sly, and deceptive at times, it's a struggle with at time to keep him under control - he's always been like it since he was first old enough to see his defiance . But, most of the time, through what I perceive to be "not too bad" parenting he knows where the boundaries are, he's been taught what is and isn't acceptable behaviour, and I hope to god that he'd never do anything like that.

The other DS (one is too young for me to comment) I don't think would. He's different, he was born with a different personality. I think he's fight back against a background like those boys suffered at home and break the cycle.

I do think there's a complicated mix of both nature (their personalities and their own traits) and nuture in these cases.

While not all children who are exposed to what those two were at home will grow up to do that, I think it's safe to say that most people who carry out such attacks have been exposed to it during their formative years.

Obviously there will always be exceptions to this, and people who have had wonderful family lifes will end up committing horrific crimes too.

If those children hadn't had that toxic home life it wouldn't have guaranteed that this wouldn't have happened, but I'm sure it would have lessened the risk........

Which brings us full circle again to the subject of blame doesn't it if those 2 boys had behavioural problems (as many youngsters do) , but were brought up in a more stable home environment would this still have happened? Perhaps, perhaps not, but I think the chances would have been less.

Who is to blame - I don't know - perhaps as someone else mentioned soceity as a whole. I am very glad that most of my friends, and parents of other children I associate with have no problem with me telling their children off if they're not in ear shot to do it, and vice versa. If my DS's when they're older go to the park and are being silly and someone tells them off then I don't think I'll have an issue with it. That was how I grew up - my brother and I would go off down to the park on our own, and often got told off by complete strangers - but my goodness it kept us in check and we were generally well behaved because we knew that we couldn't get away with behaving badly because someone would tell us off.

I think perhaps we have in general become more insular, more private, not wanting others in our communities to "intefere" with how our children are brought up - but to what cost? Is this why the "nanny state" is so hated, instead of the "village raising a child" - now it seems to be the state raising the child in some way, yet perhaps the state can't do as much as a community can. They can't always be when the children from across the road are beaving badly, yet the neighbours can't tell them off as the children don't think they should listen and neither do the parents of those children.

I remember attending a conference given by a Nobel laureate. It was long time ago and I may have get the names confused, but I believe the man was Joseph Rotblat.

There was the final phrase that stuck with me ever since. Although was aimed to science students, he said something like this:

"You are responsible for all of your creations" be it a piece of technology that could be used in detriment of society, or ... a child.

I believe the child he was making reference to was Hitler.

So, just something to think about it.

chegirlsgotheartburn
"My main sympathies of course lay with the victims. Those poor boys. Please God they get the help and support the need.

The boys who did this were not born like this. They are not evil devil children who spontanously (sp) decided to be bad.

They are a product of their upbringing. Those who did this to them are to blame and should be punished.

When our society lables children as 'born evil' we are doing it to distance ourselves from any responsiblity for them. If they are 'just like that' its nothing to do with any of us is it?

If we see them as sub human scum we are safe from any blame. They are not like us or our children.

Any child subjected to years of neglect and abuse could turn out like this.

If it were my children who had been subjected to this dreadful attack I would have every right to harbour thoughts of terrible revenge. I do not think the likes of the Sun, DM and the Mirror have the right to do so.

I am digusted at how we portray violent children. They do not drop down from the sky, fully formed and ready to kill."

Absolutely perfect post.

TheShriekingHArpy
I have read a lot of research on the subject of whether or not psychopathic tendencies are hereditary, or whether they stem from nurture.
From all that I have read I believe it is nurture. All the research that wanted to show these traits are biological were merely based on the fact that the behaviour is passed down from generation to generation... Which proves nothing, only that a parent who was abused as a child is likely to go on to abuse their own kids.
The frontal lobe of the brain is different in psychopaths than it is in other people and some believe this is genetic. But more convincing research shows that a child's brain is shaped by its early environment, thereby affecting the shape of the frontal lobe in early development. We all know here about how cortisol (the stress hormone) is released in the brains of newborns who are left to cry without comfort for a long period of time. Well, without the right parenting the brain itself becomes wired differently.
It is not a coincidence that every single murderer, mass murdered and dictator that you can ever read about has been subjected to horrific abuse in childhood. How can anyone really believe that these facts are a random coincidence? That every baby "born bad", every child who is a "bad seed", just happens to have been subjected to abuse.
So at least for me, there is not doubt in my mind at all that "evil" people are made, not born. Its important to sort this out and for people to get it because it firmly places the blame on society, rather than on the child as others have pointed out here.
In the same vein I think its madness to start blaming social workers when an atrocity like this happens, as though they are the guilty party; thats just scapegoating. Instead, we should look towards providing more funding to social services. What we also need is more funding for parents, decent childcare for every mother who works, and extra financial help for mothers who would rather be at home with their babies. I could go on listing all the ways government and social money would be better spent on children rather than going to fund wars...

But I don't want to diminish what these perpetrators have done. Many other abused children do not go on to abuse their own kids and only a tiny minority ever commit a crime like this. So there does need to be a proper, fitting punishment for these boys. There is a huge possibility they are damaged beyond repair and the only right thing to do would be to lock them up and throw away the key. But I think it is important to discuss how they became monsters in order to prevent more monsters being created.

But surely there must be something that makes one child mor suscptible than another otherwise how does that explain how 2 siblings with the same upbringing can turn out completely different?

Yes, I think that certain inherent personality traits can mean that the effects of abuse on some children are different. Some children are born sensitive and bookish, some are born sporty and robust. Sorry about the stereotypes but my guess is that certain, completely benign personality tendencies find it harder to cope with vicious abuse than other personality types. My guess is that its the extremely sensitive children, those who would probably have gone on to become artists or poets in the right nurturing environment, who find their abuse intolerable and whose brains are the most traumatised and "damaged". Some children are born with a happier, optimistic nature and maybe those children can make it out of the abuse and do great things in the world. OTher children are born with a more serious, introspective nature. All children are born different as anyone who has had more than one baby knows. It does't mean that a child with a certain personality trait was pre-disposed to evil. Their brains simply could not cope with the abuse in the way another child's brain could. NO child should be subjected to abuse and neglect. Its just a silly argument to me to suggest that severe abuse is a side issue in all of this. Its the key to all atrocities and it matters not a bit that some kids make it out okay.

I mostly agree with you Sakura. Our society loves to scapegoat people - in this case the social workers and foster carers.

Okay, so they weren't born like this, it's the fault of the parents/society/social services, etc.

That's now water under the bridge because now they are who they are and there's little chance of changing that, especially because they know they'll be given new identities. They'll never be held accountable for their actions.

WHAT do we do with people like this?

Because what we are doing now is not protecting society from them.

When do one person's human rights supercede another's to live their lives?

I mostly agree but still feel that they made a choice to do it and they knew, even at 10 and 11, that it was wrong especially as they were in trouble for what they'd done the week before. And to go to the extent that they did still makes me feel that there is something that isn't quite right with them and never will be. As someone else said, we've only been told half of the things they did there will be much more we won't be told about.

I agree with expat, the most important thing is for society to be protected from such depraved personalities - regardless of how these personalities were formed.

"they made a choice to do it and they knew, even at 10 and 11, that it was wrong"

I wonder though.

If you're raised on a diet of violent films and dope, in a house where random extreme violence is the norm, how do you begin to know what is right and what is wrong?

The Indie ran an article this week on secure children's homes, don't know if anyone linked to it yet: here

What we do expat is not allow some people to have children.

We also do not give parents chances again and again to have their children back and let them grow up surrounded by violence and abuse.

You would not believe how many kids I see who have been fucked over royally by their families and yet the parents are always put first, they are always allowed contact and an input into their children's lives when it is clearly not the best thing for the children.

Yes it is a horrendous case but the boys who carried this out were abused their whole lives, had no love, no boundaries - they were made like this not born like it and it is a failing of society and the government bodies who should have stepped in years ago to help the poor little mites.