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Swiss vote to ban minarets in referendum

387 replies

mateykatie · 29/11/2009 16:31

Switzerland has voted to ban the construction of mosque minarets in a national referendum. 57% supported the ban.

Here is the BBC story.

Women voted for the ban more than men according to the Times.

This seems pretty horrible to me. I always thought the Swiss were tolerant but obviously not.

OP posts:
TheShriekingHarpy · 30/11/2009 10:22

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alwayslookingforanswers · 30/11/2009 10:26

you know - perhaps we should have left the Apartheid system in SA alone as well, I mean a lot of those white people just weren't ready for blacks to have any say in matters and treat them like equals (many still aren't). You know it really wasn't very nice of us to call them racist and force them into submission.

alwayslookingforanswers · 30/11/2009 10:28

fine it's not an associatio that YOU make - but you can't deny that the general public perception is that Islam=black or Asian.

alexpolismum · 30/11/2009 10:28

I think it is disingenuous to say that the only possible motivation is racist.

Firstly, I do not think that resistance to change is necessarily racist.

Secondly, it is entirely plausible for someone to be opposed to all forms of religious expression because they believe that all people are equal and should not be divided along religious lines. Or, as I earlier suggested, because they disagree with all forms of cultural relativism, including religious expression.

AbricotsSecs · 30/11/2009 10:29

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TheShriekingHarpy · 30/11/2009 10:30

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gorionine · 30/11/2009 10:30

I am Swiss, and no, Swiss people are not known for their tolerant attitude, hence why I live in the UK.

I had my Mum on the phone this morning, she is absolutely devastated by this vote as she and my Dad were actively campainig against the ban. My Mother is a fervent Roman Catholic, My Dad is a complete atheist and I converted to Islam 13 years ago. My Mum told me that the debate very quickly turned to Islamophobia and had very very little to do with construction issues.

Before this referendum, a mosque who wanted to apply for a minaret to be built would have asked for planning permission and it would have been accepted or refused now, they do not even have the right to ASK as it will be written in the swiss CONSTITUTION that minarets are not allowed full stop.

In Geneva, some people that wanted minarets to be banned, went in the early hours of the morning, through the streets with tannoys on their cars to do a call for prayer (adan) to scare people as to "what would happen if Muslims were allowed a minaret on their mosques!" No mosque with a minaret in Switzerland has ever called for prayer outside the mosque.

It is very sad for me as I will never go back to live in my own country for fear that my children and myself will be considered as "foreigners" and be abused because of the way we pray (DH is foreign and looks foreign so it would probably be even harder for him). I am not looking foreward going back even for the holiday I must say and if it wasn't for my fantastic parents, I would not go there again.

alwayslookingforanswers · 30/11/2009 10:34

so if it's not (strictly) racist - then it's an anti-Islam one - and as I would hazard a good guess that in conservative Switzerland people DO associate Islam with Asian people.

There have been Sikh Temples and Serbian Orthodox Churches built in Switzerland in recent years. So at the very least it's an intolerance towards Islam and a lumping mainstream Muslims in with Al Qaeda activists - but I guess that's ok as we have to wait for people to accept change .

alexpolismum · 30/11/2009 10:43

alwayslookingforanswers - there have been mosques built. It is, you might say, the first step.

I never said that we should accept resistance to change, just that it is understandable. Minarets are not essential to Muslim worship - Muslims are free to believe in Islam and pray as they believe in Switzerland.

Nancy66 · 30/11/2009 10:43

It's an anti islamic statement. i don't suppose the Swiss are any more intolerant than any other country. I'm pretty sure you'd get the same result in any country in Europe including the UK.

AbricotsSecs · 30/11/2009 10:45

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gorionine · 30/11/2009 10:47

Yes, alwayslookingforanswers, according to my Parents, it is exactly what it was: The people in favour of the ban campained telling people that if Muslims "got their way" all women would have to wear scarves/niquabs/burkas (In my understanding they included non-Musluim women) and the entire Swiss population would have to wake up at the crack of dawn for the morning prayers.

Nancy66 they are a lot of fantastic people in Switzerland, but as a nation, Swiss people are not tolerent as opposed to UK where there are a few idiots who have got extreme far right views but as a country/group of countries the UK mentality is definitely more understanding and accepting of cultural differences.

PrematureEjoculation · 30/11/2009 10:50

are they going to ban yodelling too?

alwayslookingforanswers · 30/11/2009 10:51

There have been 4 mosques with minarets built in Switzerland, all applications for minarets have been turned down in recent years.

There are about 90 "mosques" in the country (for 400,000 muslims so approx 4000 "per mosque" - compared to 1500 in the UK for 1.5million working out at 1000 "per mosque") and the majority of these are actually "Islamic Cultural Centres" not "proper" mosques (rather like the churches in the UK that use community centres and schools for their services rather than "proper" churches.

stuffitllllama · 30/11/2009 11:03

Always: you are quite right in highlighting appalling practices elsewhere in the world. It's so important. But what to do?

As outsiders, do we judge? We must judge, de facto, by our own standards: those standards are not universal, we just think they are because they are ours. So are we absolutist about it or relativist? Do we say, there are just some things that are wrong, and our standards are worth more than your standards? We are always talking from our own standards, always. Do we stand outside that culture and say, that's wrong and should change?

Having done that, do we do anything about it if we live outside that country? Do we have to live there or be born there or pay taxes there to have the right to do anything about it?

South Africa, a great example. We acted. A great example of what can be acheived and simultaneously of double standards. Apartheid, cruelty, lawlessness, continue elsewhere and are not acted upon perhaps on the grounds that acting on a country's internal issues is colonialism of the worst kind. Crusader-ism. We judge, but we can't impose.

But we can say: it doesn't happen in our country. This doesn't really relate to the minarets issue, but more to for example the criminalisation of female circumcision etc. Or, with South Africa, those products don't make it here, this bank will not operate here, that team will not play here.

This is what the Swiss are reacting to. You can almost read their minds: plenty of places allow minarets, you can go there, but live here and you accept our ways.

There's a reaction here on this thread because people are, right here, right now, having a go at Switzerland which is not a place, generally, of lawlessness and cruelty while there are no threads on other countries, which are quite frankly a living hell if you have the wrong colour or wrong religion or wrong name. It's like an accusation of double standards.

saraya · 30/11/2009 11:07

Although the result of the vote has shocked many and has many disgusted etc etc..we must concede i is what they democractically voted for and it gives a clear indication of how the general attitude is in this case when it comes to Islamic emblems and symbols.So then Muslims would probably now want to think many times before going to work or live there which considering how much of the workforce there is originally from Muslim countries should give the Swiss many a sleepless night..the Swiss did one heck of a massive U turn when it came to Ghadaffi's son some time ago because the Libyans actually threatened and I beleieve did pull out their money from Swiss banks and halted all economic links etc..so they hit them where it hurt and the Swiss made a PUBLIC apology in Libya itself! so just goes to show that money and economic interests makes all the difference..

alexpolismum · 30/11/2009 11:13

Stuffitllllama - you are right, of course, that we always judge from our own standards. This goes for all people. But I believe that cultural relativism is intellectually dishonest. It is, in effect, saying "I believe this is a lower standard, but it's good enough for them. It's not good enough for me."

While this is in itself an interesting point to debate, it is a separate issue, and not really about building minarets in Switzerland.

MmeLindt · 30/11/2009 11:14

Gorionine
I am sorry that you are so upset, I can understand that.

It has been quite upsetting to see the posters up in town. Geneva is one of the few cantons that voted against the ban but even here we see scenes of casual racism.

It begins with the comments after a burglary in our house, 'It was probably the gypsies' and continues with the checking of foreigners passports. Not mine, as I do not look foreign to the police.

It is generally a lovely place to live but it is SLOOOOW. Everything takes longer.

I spoke to some friends recently and they said that at first they were going to vote no to the banning of the minarets, until they read more about it.

She then started to talk about the very things that these groups have been 'warning' against.

It was very much a well fought propaganda war, the more tolerant parties were just unable to put their point across.

It just strengthens my opinion that there are some issues that you just cannot trust the public to vote on.

If referendums were allowed in UK, then stupid laws would be passed there too.

daftpunk · 30/11/2009 11:17

doubt the result of the vote has shocked that many people.... most people couldn't give a toss...

the Swiss have voted against the building of minarets......think we're all still breathing.

alexpolismum · 30/11/2009 11:17

saraya - of course economic interest is a major factor in decision making. This is hardly an earth shattering discovery. It's why governments in the West are happy to turn a blind eye to intolerance and injustice in some places but not in others.

alwayslookingforanswers · 30/11/2009 11:19
alexpolismum · 30/11/2009 11:19

yes, daftpunk, we are still breathing. But you choose to come and post about it on an internet forum, so it is obviously of some interest to you.

jemart · 30/11/2009 11:20

gorionine - If no mosque with a minaret in Switzerland has ever called for prayer outside the mosque then why is a minaret necessary? (possibly a stupid question, I know very little about Islam)

alwayslookingforanswers · 30/11/2009 11:23

if very few churches in the UK use bells in the morning to "call to worship" does that mean that there's no point in allowing new churches to build spires or towers?

alexpolismum · 30/11/2009 11:25

MmeLindt - I live in a different country but can identify with your experience about comments from people. Here any petty theft is immediately ascribed to either the gypsies or the Albanians. People can be so casually racist towards these groups and then violently defensive of the rights of black people. They don't seem to make the connection between the two.

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