Swiss vote to ban minarets in referendum

[mateykatie]

Switzerland has voted to ban the construction of mosque minarets in a national referendum. 57% supported the ban.

Here is the BBC story.

Women voted for the ban more than men according to the Times.

This seems pretty horrible to me. I always thought the Swiss were tolerant but obviously not.

If you compare some of the monstrosities used for worship in this country with teh architecture of a trad minaret there is no comparison aesthetically so it is based on pure bigotry

I remember when I was working in Switzerland (a couple of months ago) and we were discussing Swine Flu and what not. The one SUPER Swiss guy was saying it's terrible how these immigrants come here, with their swine flu and what not, and next thing you know some yodeller living up in the Alps goes for one visit to town to buy cheese (or something) and gets swine flu from said dirty foreigner. I was pretty shocked by that, as previous that super swiss guy had been really lovely and friendly and accomodating. You just don't really encounter that sort of opinion in London (or I don't at least).

TheShriekingHarpy, ther are planning laws for exactly that, no need for a special mention in the Swiss constitution!

alexpolismum - You need to read the Quran and some hadith to have an understanding of how and why Muslims think/act re these topics.

"I think your point about freedom to worship is debatable and not clear cut. if a Muslim converts to Christianity, should he not then be considered a Christian and be given freedom to worship as such?"

It's actually rather "clear cut", as the majority of Muslims, especially those living in fundamentally religious countries like Iran, believe Quran is the literal word of God, sent down page by printed page to illiterate Mohammad. And in the Quran, it says apostates are to be slayed wherever they are caught. Iirc, hadith are a bit gentler, and say first you are to talk to him and try to make him come back to Islam. If that doesn't work, separate his wife and children from him so he doesn't "contaminate" them. If that doesn't work, killing him is "what should be done". Don't quote me on this though as I don't remember the particular hadith. Perhaps one of the Muslims on this thread can help.

"With regards to Turkey, I do wonder sometimes if this will change now that Erdogan's party is takeing more and more control and uprooting the military establishment"

Erdogan has been in power for many years now, and Turkish army has not lost its power, regardless of what you might read in UK newspapers.

"Also, I notice that Turkey's tolerance does not extend to the Halki theological seminary."

Penetrating powers of observation. So you "notice" that a minor school on some island was closed 40 years ago and that means... what, exactly to Turkey in the year 2009?

This is the problem with Googling on an insufficient knowledge base - you actually think you know a country because you read "Halki theological seminary was closed by Turkish state" or some such Did that website not mention that ALL private universities were closed in 1971, not just Halki?

And do you "notice" that Greek Orthodox Church still operates out of Turkey? What does that mean re religious tolerance in Turkey, do you think?

If you visited Turkey, do you think you would "notice" synagogues and churches open for worship? What do you think that would mean re religious tolerance in Turkey?

Apologies to the thread for going off on this tangent, but it pisses me off when people read a few sentences from a Google search and are instant experts on any subject.

Riven, I agree with this:

"I am beginning to think religions must have 'phases' of extremism which then mellows."

Christianity had a period when their Book was taken literally ("suffer not a witch to live" and all that) and we now call that period the Dark Ages. Perhaps we are now living in Islam's "Dark Ages". I doubt if we will see it, but there will surely come a time when people will stop taking Quran literally, follow the religion with its message of love and tolerance, and disregard the tiny bits that were relevant to Arab lands circa 600 AD, but not any more.

Unfortunately, history suggests that the transition from "Dark Ages" to "Enlightenment" tends to be very bloody. I truly hope that Muslims will manage a peaceful revolution.

"The problem is some Muslim countries is that there is no division between religion and state."

True. And the reason is that Islam is not just a religion, but also a way of governance. Quran and Hadith give very detailed guidance as to how a Muslim person should live his/her life, and that extends to how the state and justice system, among others, should operate.

Never been to Switzerland - never wanted to - those I know who have worked there have lasted a few months and then gone running home.

Their country - a sovereign one - their rules - their ideas - not mine - vote with your feet - what is there anyhow?

Won't go regardless - not interested - why are we interested (assuming the most of us in UK) when it has nothing to do with EU.

BTW - most of EU regards all it's ills due to non europeans anyhow (been to southern europe erm in the last 20 years?). Not just the Swiss.

The more things change the more things stay the same.

Sadly.

The reason why you see churches etc. open in Turkey is that it is, constitutionally, as secular state (as I said above).

Interestingly (I'm not sure that's a word though, but hey), the term Fundamentalist was actually coined in 1923 to describe Christian groups in the US, who wanted Christianity to return to its Fundamentals and roots. These groups were the forerunners of the evangelical churches. The correct term for the equivalent groups in Islam is "Islamist", and yes, a lot of them have their roots in Wahhabism and later in things like the Muslim Brotherhood. (and no, not from google searches, from MA).

A lot of our own cultural tolerance comes out of guilt for colonialism. The Swiss maybe guilty of some grim behaviour sometimes but they don't have that legacy of guilt to beat themselves up with. Maybe that explains some of it.

CoteDAzur - you should not be so quick to make assumptions about my sources.

I have in fact read the passage in question in the Qu'ran, although I admit I have not read the Hadith you mention. I find it hard to understand how anyone can believe God (or whatever you choose to call a supreme being) would order its followers to kill anyone. Such orders would render it unworthy of worship as far as I am concerned. (I do not believe in God in any case, I am speaking from a philosophical viewpoint). However, thankyou for making clear the literal interpretation of the Quran - I had somewhat naively hoped that Muslims would not see it as such.

With regards to your second point about Turkey, my information has not come from a quick google search. I have read many articles relating to the Ergenekon investigation, for example, and it seems that things are changing in the military establishment in Turkey.

The Orthodox Patriarchy does indeed operate in Turkey - it is subject to frequent attacks by the Grey Wolves, to quote you "What do you think that would mean re religious tolerance in Turkey?" I have on more than one occasion read of Christian priests being attacked and murdered in Turkey - "What do you think that would mean re religious tolerance in Turkey?"

Things are never as simple as they seem on the surface.

"I truly hope that Muslims will manage a peaceful revolution." on this point we agree completely.

Incidentally, just to set the record straight, I rarely read the uk newspapers, other than a few links I click on here via MN. There are many other sources of information out there.

Message withdrawn

Serenity - re "The reason why you see churches etc. open in Turkey is that it is, constitutionally, as secular state"

Yes, that is true.

As such, it is a counterexample to certain prejudices on this thread and elsewhere re "all Muslim countries".

londonlottie - re "Culture should not be mistaken for creed, and the desire to maintain a Swiss culture should not be mistaken for racism"

Actually, I agree.

As most socio-political decisions, whether or not to allow minarets in Switzerland is a trade-off:

On one hand, you have the wish to keep their neighbourhoods visually unchanged/familiar.

On the other hand, you have a minority's wish to observe their religion in a place that looks like their house of worship.

I wouldn't call this ban a sign of racism (although Swiss are generally racist, even against East Europeans) but I would say it is unwise because it allows the majority's petty wish re visual aesthetics to dictate the minority's rather important wish re their religion.

"I can't think of a Muslim nation where non-Muslims are not penalised or restricted in some way."

Turkey. As mentioned a few times on this thread now.

alexpolismum - re "I find it hard to understand how anyone can believe God would order its followers to kill anyone"

Are you serious? Quran is full of targets for the homicidally inclined, and so is the Bible and the Torah.

I don't believe in God, either, by the way, and never have.

"the literal interpretation of the Quran"

I'm afraid most if not all interpretation of the Quran is literal. As I said before, it is believed to be the literal word of God, floated down from wherever God lives to the hands of an illiterate prophet. As such, it is to be obeyed, not questioned nor "interpreted". In fact, the only interpretation of Quran is in the slightly different translations from Arabic.

"I have read many articles relating to the Ergenekon investigation, for example, and it seems that things are changing in the military establishment in Turkey"

Ergenekon is a sham, a story for government to prosecute writers, intellectuals, newspapers, etc who criticise them. Army has not changed and is not likely to, just because government is taking some retired generals to court.

"The Orthodox Patriarchy does indeed operate in Turkey - it is subject to frequent attacks by the Grey Wolves"

What "frequent attacks" and who do you think "Grey Wolves" are? "Bozkurtlar" is a small ultra-nationalist youth group, kind of like the pathetic neo-nazi groups in European cities. Their isolated acts of desecration or violence is no more than German neo-nazi groups' acts of violence - do you remember when they set fire to Muslim workers' homes and killed a few? Does that mean something about Germany in general or does it just mean those people are criminals?

You might like to know at this point that I am Turkish and have lived in Turkey most of my life. Whatever lone-standing and possibly long-forgotten act of bigotry you can dig up on the internet, I have grown up in a city with synagogues and churches and went to school with Jewish kids. The only different treatment they got was they spent the 1hr/week religion class in the library (and how we envied them for that!). I have been to weddings in churches and in synagogues. And none of my Christian or Jewish friends have ever been oppressed, nor told how and where to worship.

Not that I expect that to change your mind. Sigh.

Cote - re "I find it hard to understand how anyone can believe God would order its followers to kill anyone"

Are you serious? Quran is full of targets for the homicidally inclined, and so is the Bible and the Torah.

Yes, I am serious. I am well aware that various religious texts incite violence. What I said was that I find it hard to understand how anyone can believe in it as having come from God. But then, I don't believe in God either.

I already knew you were Turkish, I have seen you on MN before.

Perhaps the Halki school is indeed long forgotten by the majority of the Turkish population, if not by the authorities, who are reminded by frequent applications to have it reopened.

As for the other points, I bow to your superior knowledge. I have only visited and read about (albeit extensively), not lived in Turkey.

Message withdrawn

Mororcco is the best example I can think of.
And it is NOT a secular state.

During the second world war, the king refused to identify jewish citizens and deliver them to the Petain led french resident (it was a french protectorate at the time).

Although many jews have left and settled in France/canada and Israel nowadays, they still come back very regularly to visit family and go on annual pilgrimages during religious festivals. There are numerous shrines and they are still very much part of the social fabric.

There are also churches (an cathedrals) in various cities and sunday mass is conducted openly.

Well, actually that's not why I came back to the thread.

Just watched the swiss news (in french on TSR) and the DEBATE HAS NOW MOVED ON TO THE VEIL.
Surprise surprise! I guess no more hypocrisy now that the cat is out of the hat, they can finally discuss the real issues.

It will be interesting, actually -- there will be a real focus on what Islam is about if this debate widens. There are so many misperceptions. What the Quran requires, what is actually needed for freedom to practise Islam. So the minaret, the veil, the niqab (or burkah? I get them muddled) and how much is cultural and how much is religious. There's often been claims that this or that is needed or religious freedom is being denied. I suppose this is one way of finding out, in a country that openly votes and openly reported.

For Christianity I suppose you would say if you can freely read and share the Bible, and freely gather, and freely show the Cross, that would be enough. There are as many diff types of Islam as Christianity though I guess -- does a sect have its own rights within a religion?

IMHO all this shit stirring with islam in Europe is the best thing that can happen to muslims (who within muslim countries hardly ever question the dogma).

Who defines the dogma is THE big problem in Islam. Lets face it it is a fascist ideology.

Note: I said ideology not religion. The problem with islam is not with its spiritual content but its normative dimension.

The big problem throughout europe, again IMHO, is one of PR. Islam is perceived as a fascist ideology and muslims cry foul because they do not see it that way. They see it as an attack on their spiritual beliefs, their freedom of worship, their right to maintain a cultural anchoring in Islam.

Still a long way to go....separation of church and state was a very painful process because so much of the civil laws of man had an anchoring in the natural laws of GOD since the first justinan code (just an obvious example: family statutes and divorce, abortion, etc, etc....).