Teaching schoolchildren not to engage in domestic violence

[Deadworm]

Apologies if there is already a thread on this govt announcement. I was quite shocked by the news that the government is instructing schools to hold lessons on the subject of domestic violence.

My first thought was despair that we actually needed to tell children that it was not right. But my rapidly following thought was that the lessons probably would make a difference, would erode children's sense that the violent context of their own family is normal and the way of the world, would contrbute to a culture where domestic violence is at last regarded as unacceptable.

Thinking of my own sons I feel reassured but sad to think they will be exposed to these lessons.

Further thoughts:

Will the lessons avoid the pitfall of concentrating on telling potential victims how to keep themselves safe, rather than telling potential perpetrators not to offend?

The government is instructing schools to hold these lessons. It is shocking how educational culture has changed in a generation. When I was at school any central dictat would only come from a French government to French schools.

Add message | Report | Contact poster By EffiePerine Wed 25-Nov-09 13:12:59
"I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss DV or raise awareness or (most imp) ensure people can access help if they need it. But our education system is unwell, we have school leavers who do not have the skills and knowledge they need to a) sit a degree or b) work. Which is something I'd like to see the government addressing."

THIS IS EXACTLY THE POINT

it is an important issue, the stats prove that the culture needs to change.

**by saying - NOT through schools - I am not saying - NOT teach it at all.

children learn through life, they take their cues from parents as to what is acceptable behaviour.

the parents need the lessons

the schools need to teach children to be able to get qualifications.

not to parent by proxy

But how do we make sure the next generation of parents know better if we don't talk to them about things like DV before they become parents?

I did not say we should be emulating Sweden; just that this is one possible take, and very likely something the government may have had in mind. Of course, we're not going to get a whole Swedish society just because we take over a small piece of policy- any more than the Swedish government have been able to solve the hideous Swedish drinks problem by making a few superficial changes to be more like the continent.

Possibly there are things you can't change unless you change a whole society. Swedes aren't suddenly going to become Frenchmen because they are encouraged to drink red wine rather than beer. They have an uncomfortable relationship with alcohol for centuries and this is unlikely to change overnight. The British have had an uncomfortable relationship with sex- again, these things take time.

Otoh governments understandably feel they have to start somewhere rather than just wringing their hands at the magnitude of the task.

so talk to them about dv before they become parents.

teach the parents to parent

set the culture

teach the parents to parent

This is a great idea, and well overdue. I was just discussing this in the thread about the poor wee 4 year old who was stabbed to death.

It is sad, but we talk to kids about keeping themselves safe from sexual abuse, so we can talk to them about keeping safe from domestic violence. I think it ought to be taught in primary school in the same fashion as we talk to them about keeping safe from sexual abuse. SO many kids grow up with violence and then grow up to be abused or abusers, if we can help 'em young we could stop the cycle of violence.

As a child I grew up in a DV household and it would've helped me to have been told what to do. So many times I stopped myself from pressing the last 9 on a 999 call as my stepfather was strangling and beating my mother...

If at school they had told me what to do, who to talk to, that it wasn't OK and I didn't have to live that way, it would've changed my life. I also think good training for teachers on how to deal with a kid who discloses they live in a DV household would be helpful. I actually told a teacher. But then I begged her not to tell my mum because I thought she would treat me like a traitor for telling. My teacher didn't tell anyone else or get me help, and she was a great teacher, but I think she didn't know what to do with the information.

The american girl scout organisation has badges for all ages on how to have a healthy relationship and even a domestic violence awarenss badge. If they can do it, then we can do something similar in schools for pete's sake.

Custardo Wed 25-Nov-09 14:16:48
"so talk to them about dv before they become parents."

Exactly. Like when they're at school.

what do they miss whilst we are talking about things that PARENTS SHOULD BE TEACHING?

maths, english? languages?

teach the parents - to teach the children

Custy, my mum rarely gave me a bath whilst she was in a DV relationship. She would tell me that it was perfectly normal that SD would beat her and abuse us. I know I wasn't the only kid suffering at home too. How exactly to you think she would've been able to teach me about healthy relationship?

A couple of afternoons talking about DV is not going to turn all our kids illiterate and might actually save lives, WTF is your problem with it?

I think getting parents to attend these classes is one thing as it could be compulsory but tbh the sort of person who abuses is usually very manipulative and often charismatic and it may all fall on deaf ears.At least in school over time it may sink in.We need to attack it from all sides and hope some gets through.There was a little girl in ds primary school who was v studious quiet from yummy mummy type family.I used to wish ds was like her as he was always arsing about and they sat next to each other and he was always being told off!Her parents were knocking 7 bells out of each other in their big fancy house and she never said a word.When she was about 10 her dad got smashed at a party where most of the parents were and punched his wife in front of everybody.It seems unbelievable that she couldn't talk but there was probably no opportunity for her

my problem, is where does the proxy parenting by govt end.

we need to change the culture.

a couple of afternoons isn't going to cut it.

noddy, I was just like that little girl. Studious, well-behaved and all my friends parents loved me. Which was a good thing as I basically used to hide out at their houses after school so I could spend as little time as possible at my violent "home".

Everyone had a serious block about believing a middle class family could have DV, and so basically ignored it because the cognitive dissonance freaked them out.

I think you're wrong Custy. A couple of afternoons giving out information on what to do would've changed my life. I would've called any numbers they gave me, reached out for help. That's all it would've taken.

I share your dislike of the government intruding into our lives, am anti-ID cards for example, but this really could make a difference.

How else do you propose we change the culture? If not schools, then what? We've had high profile ad campaigns, they probably helped a little, but it's still not enough. So what's your solution?

universal compulsory parenting classes. compulsory on condition of recieving child benefit.

peace

I think the ad campaigns which are directed at adults go a small way to helping adults over come the shame factor but do nothing to open the door for children to speak up.

Exactly noddy. I'm thinking of protecting the kids, giving them a forum, escape routes.

Universal compulsory parenting classes? I thought you found the government was too intrusive? Isn't that just as intrusive? Just because parents attend classes doesn't mean they'll internalise the lessons. I went to Sunday school, but sure as shit 'ain't a Christian, and no "Christain Classes" are gonna change that.

Do you propose to remove child benefit from parents who don't attend the classes? How's that going to help the kids of abusive parents? What about parents who are DV, but rich? They wouldn't care about losing the benefit, are you also assuming that only poor families suffer DV?

No Custy, I see where you are coming from, but you're wrong.

"I would like to see a system in place that, even if a battered mother doesn't want to press charges, the children can be taken into care until she gets out of the abusive relationship"

Yeah, great idea, abuse the mother and children further for being the victims of domestic violence by separating them. The effect of that, would simply be that women wouldn't report domestic violence at all - they'd put up with it for much longer because they'd be terrified of having their kids taken away. There's evidence that that's already happening. Victims of dv shouldn't be punished, their their perpetrators should. I'd like to see the govt put more emphasis on that.

But I'm amazed by how angry everyone is about this. Children discuss all sorts of things in RE, PHSE, SEAL etc. Abortion, contraception, sex, racism - why are some of you so outraged that DV should be discussed alongside that? Why is it so different than any other topic or issue DC's discuss in school?

Also I disagree that schools are merely factories for learning to read and write. They have a much wider function than that, always have had but I think what alarms people is that the current government has codified and formalised the "ersatz-parenting" for want of a better term, which has always gone on in schools.

C&P from the Observer report on this initiative:
"The campaign, which will be supported in schools and carried on television, aims to ensure that girls understand they do not have to tolerate any form of violence or controlling behaviour. It will help young people understand what constitutes abusive behaviour in a relationship by covering a range of messages from physical violence through to being pressured to have sex."

And from the same article:
"Research by the NSPCC reveals that a third of teenage girls in a relationship suffer an unwanted sexual act. A quarter of girls also suffer physical violence, such as being slapped, punched or beaten by their boyfriend."

Excerpt from THIS REPORT

"New research undertaken by a team from the Universities of Warwick, Bristol, Durham and North London reveals worrying attitudes to domestic violence by school age boys. The research, funded by the ESRC, explored the understanding and attitudes of over 1,300 children aged 8 to 16 to domestic violence and revealed disturbing trends that suggest work in schools to address this issue must start at a very early age. Teenage boys in particular had worrying attitudes. Over 75% of 11-12 year old boys thought that women get hit if they make men angry, and more boys than girls, of all ages, believed that some women deserve to be hit. Boys aged 13-14 were even less clear that men should take responsibility for their violence. Boys of all ages, particularly teenagers, have less understanding than girls of who is at fault, and are more likely to excuse the perpetrator."

Please don't assume that YOUR sons and daughters will be magically immune to peer group attitudes just because you don't smack at home.

Thanks for that info Mrs F. The stats are just awful ..

I still say that the importance of our children's spiritual growth and welfare outweighs education. I want my children to have a brilliant education, doesn't everyone? Yet just recently I've seen a bright, well-educated, vivacious, very close friend of mine start to shrink before my eyes in a mentally abusive relationship.

Surely, the more something is talked about, and faced down, as opposed to kept hush hush in many households, the less likely it is to happen?

I find some of the comments a bit, well, NINBY. It's shortsighted.

I think this is very good idea as my 4 children are still coming to terms with the abuse that they witnessed against myself, we are still all in family sessions with CAHMS and even after 6 years of being free from the idiot we are still coming to terms with what has happened. I think if they talk about domestic violence - be it man, woman, child or animal then I can only see it as a good thing. It's time this came to the surface instead of behind closed doors and women and men hiding their bruises. My eldest child is 14 and only now is he fully talking about what he witnessed from 2 years old onwards. My children and myself are getting there but if there is a safe place that children can talk out, isn't that a good thing?

"Please don't assume that YOUR sons and daughters will be magically immune to peer group attitudes just because you don't smack at home."

I don't. But nor do I assume that the government will be any more successful in teaching my children right from wrong than I - or any other parent - will be. I just don't think schools can - or even should - be expected to deal with all of society's ills.

As a side issue, I noticed that the new "education" is all about violence against girls and women. Does that mean that violence against boys and men is somehow okay then? When we see boys underperformimng at every level, is it wise to discriminate against them in this way? Surely it would be better to teach that violence is bad, full stop?

"Does that mean that violence against boys and men is somehow okay then?"

How on earth can you draw that conclusion?

Do you also assume that violence against elderly relatives/domestic pets/au-pairs/people with ginger hair is "somehow okay" because it isn't specifically mentioned?

Have you actually read the articles I posted links to? Are you seriously suggesting that the attitudes displayed by these boys should not be discussed or challenged in any way because they are underperforming in other areas? And how exactly are boys being discriminated against?

PHSE is already meant to emcompass health AND relationships. So why not initiate discussions about what actually constitutes a healthy realtionship?

None of this is new, you know. We discussed DV issues in something called "Social Education" lessons, 35 years ago, along with assertiveness, contraception, careers, self-esteem, healthy living, drug abuse etc. etc.

Mrs Flittersnoop, did you read any of the links? Properly?

The initiative is specifically about teaching that violence aginst women, girls (and transgenders) is wrong. See here.

Excerpt:
"It is wonderful to hear that the Government is launching an ?ambitious strategy aiming to bring an end to violence against women and girls?. The agencies that championed this should be congratulated. It is the result of the most effective campaign spearheaded by the End Violence Against Women Coalition, as well as years of work done by refuges working with vulnerable women and children....

...As I was reading through the announcement, I had a sense of joy but also of regret. I am happy for women but sad for boys and men. They too experience so much violence, but no one seems to be rising up to protect them" (Feature by Camila Batmanghelidjh).

I emphatically don't think that violence against other groups of people is okay. That is one of my criticisms of the whole initiative.

Boys are being discriminated against by being implicitly treated as the perpetrators of violence rather than the victims.

Unless I had training I would be very reluctant to tackle this in lessons. You also need more sight of the children's records than some schools allow as some students may not feel comfortable being in a lesson that may seem to them to be concentrating on their home life; and may fear being exposed to their classmates. That is unacceptable.

Teachers will also need training in how to deal with any outcomes from this and more child protection resources will need to be found. You also need to take the background of the teachers into account. Maybe some of them will be dv sufferers and will find it nigh on impossible to teach.

You also need to establish what would constitute a 'normal' relationship/family; I'd bet there are several differing definitions of 'normal', and that could be awkward as well. Many of my students thought I was abnormal for not allowing ds TV in his room; for cooking a meal and eating together each night; for disciplining him for rudeness; for being married for 20+ years; that we only saw dh at weekends, and not even that sometimes depending upon his work commitments. Parents may not like the teachers interpretation of 'normal' either.