Final phase of atheist bus campaign

[RockinSockBunnies]

So, I've just read this latest installment about the atheist bus campaign here.

Now, I'm a Christian, we go to church, DD is baptised, so obviously I'm not going to be impartial. But there point of the poster campaign seems somewhat flawed. How are children going to grow up and suddenly decide which (if any) religion they adhere to, if they've had no real exposure to any of the various religions during their upbringing?

Unless you have parents who are willing to learn the fundamental points of each and every faith, take the children to the places of worship of these faiths, whilst also discussing the concepts of atheism, then how on earth is a child going to be able to decide for themselves what they believe in once they're older?

I was an atheist for around fifteen years, but when I went back to Christianity I had the basic knowledge and understanding of the faith from attending church and Sunday School as a child. How can anyone make a real decision about religion if they're denied the opportunity to learn as a child?

What's the first step in this NO FAITH SCHOOLS plan btw? I'd love to know how it is going to pan out in practical terms.

erm, if you "need" to be "taught" religion, surely that suggests you are indoctrinating a way of thinking. Surely the fact that there is a God (whoever that may be) should be a self-evident fact, and not need to be taught?

And if it isn't a self-evident fact to you, then you end up an atheist.

I think Religious Education should still be taught in schools - I don't think you can simply lump in religion (things which people believe and which therefore affect the world today) with ancient myths (which may be interesting, but have less immediate relevance). After all if religion was just some stuff which had no effect, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, would we?

So, you still need to teach it. But can teach it in a way which covers why it can cause problems (Middle East, Northern Ireland) as well as the fact that some people actually believe it. And cover the main world religions, with emphasis on those common in the UK, to explain why some people do certain things - fasting, wearing turbans, etc.

YEs of course that's true but we teach out children everything we hold dear don't we: our values, our beliefs, what we think is right and wrong and what is good or bad. Religion includes these things as well as the symbolism of ritual in daily/weekly/yearly life.

The BHA's website says these are its aims -

to phase out 'faith' schools, in favour of inclusive schools with no religious admissions policies
for reform of RE (Religious Education), in favour of balanced teaching about different beliefs and values
for a repeal of the legal requirement of 'collective worship' which applies even in community schools
against Creationism and pseudo-science especially the threat they represent to good teaching in schools
for wider improvements to values and moral education across the school curriculum; improved Sex and Relationships Education, Citizenship Education and inclusion of Philosophy

... all of which I'd be happy to endorse

so would it be OK to teach stealing is bad etc etc, without reference to any particular religion?

I'm not sure what is meant by the "symbolism of ritual"?

I think RE is overemphasised already in schools, far to much time is given to it. I think it would be better to more or less abandon it from primary schools, and perhaps have it taught as a aspect of another umbrella subject, such as culture, or ethics or something.

I think that the weight given to religion in the curriculum is inappropriate..religion seems to be a personal thing, and it seems that people experience their religion individually, not necessarily sharing the same beliefs as other members. The confusion can lead to generalisation, and the degree of emphasis seems to exacerbate the level of importance that people think others should hold about their beliefs...we live in a culture of 'taking offence' these days, and I think its fuelled by media, soap operas, and the idea that anyone has the 'right' to not have their beliefs criticised.

That said, I'm not suggesting that people should be able to go round knocking on their neighbours' doors to make unsolicited crticisms of their faith.

I'm not sure what is meant by the "symbolism of ritual"?

Prayer, attending church/temple, a calender year of worship; special seasons and celebrations; rituals for rites of passage, birth, marriage, death etc. All that sorta thing.

to phase out 'faith' schools, in favour of inclusive schools with no religious admissions policies

Actually, this is a great idea

This will solve the CofE's pension crisis - how much value will the schools cost to sell their land and buildings to the Local Authority? It's only about 30% of the total number of primary schools but still. They could plough those billions into their pension fund and we'd be sorted.

Has anyone costed it up?

Yay let's do it

Maybe we'll even get the bell-tower fixed...

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with "screaming" No Faith Schools from billboards...

(sidenote - I've not seen any - maybe they are not in my city? or more low-key? although in my experience people send to use emotive words like "screaming" for things they don't want to see or don't think should have a voice, like when feminists are described as being "shrill").

It doesn't need to be as dramatic as that. We simply need to ask ourselves - is any kind of school of this sort necessary? In the state system? Can't we just have "schools"? Not "atheist" schools, just "schools".

One can teach strong systems of values and ethics and so on without the need for a supernatural dimension. In fact, the teaching of them is stronger without it.

I was using 'screaming' to describe bold print capitals

LIKE THIS

I could have said shouting if you prefer

Right, so we all nicely agree that there is no need for faith schools, and the church trusts hand them over nicely? As a sort of friendly gesture? Is THAT the plan?

Well, they're never going to agree to do it in any way. Religion is politics, and politics is power, and those who have power never give it up voluntarily.

If I wanted to set up a school with a particular ethos and demanded that the entry requirement should reflect people's belief in a Big Unproveable Thing, I would at least have the decency to put it in the private sector.

How is it "forcing a single set of values" on children to encourage them to accept nothing without evidence, and to mistrust anything that offers none? It baffles me. Obviously this is because, despite my grammar school and Oxbridge education, I am essentially stupid, not having had the benefit of a "faith" insight.

"E pur si muove." Remember that...

I bet lots of people grow up with no religion but turn to one as an adult.

It must be just as hard to make a sensible decision when you have been brought up to believe something by the people you love most as it must be when you have been brought up in a religious vacuum.

atheists have a strong group identity? rofl

Oh agree totally. There shouldn't be faith schools in the state system.

mp - we don't have the choice of a state secular school, it isn't allowed and could only be a private system. A secular school would not be able to have goverment funding.

France and the states do not have religious schools, and it works. France has more Catholics in Church on a Sunday than the UK

I like the french system with reagrd to religion and school

mp - we don't have the choice of a state secular school, it isn't allowed and could only be a private system. A secular school would not be able to have goverment funding.

What do you mean?

Well, they're never going to agree to do it in any way.

UQD, if this is the case, what is the point of the campaign?

Voices need to be heard.