Final phase of atheist bus campaign

[RockinSockBunnies]

So, I've just read this latest installment about the atheist bus campaign here.

Now, I'm a Christian, we go to church, DD is baptised, so obviously I'm not going to be impartial. But there point of the poster campaign seems somewhat flawed. How are children going to grow up and suddenly decide which (if any) religion they adhere to, if they've had no real exposure to any of the various religions during their upbringing?

Unless you have parents who are willing to learn the fundamental points of each and every faith, take the children to the places of worship of these faiths, whilst also discussing the concepts of atheism, then how on earth is a child going to be able to decide for themselves what they believe in once they're older?

I was an atheist for around fifteen years, but when I went back to Christianity I had the basic knowledge and understanding of the faith from attending church and Sunday School as a child. How can anyone make a real decision about religion if they're denied the opportunity to learn as a child?

If I felt the need I'd be perfectly capable, as an adult, of researching my religious options, so I don't think there's any problem with denying children the opportunity to learn about religion.
But, it seems inevitable to me that parents will bring up their children to see the world as they see it. In lots of ways, they won't even be aware that they are doing it. So I think this particular bus is doomed to fail, and probably irritate people rather than making them think.

But there is a huge distinction to be made between learning about the beliefs and customs of a religion and learning to practise it. You can teach a child 'Catholics believe this' or 'Muslims believe that' and so on for every faith you can think of, but if you are going to teach them 'you must believe this' then surely you can teach them about one religion only? So they aren't much more basis for adult decision making than a child who isn't taught to practice any religion at all.
That whole argument totally obscures the fact that the fundamental issue is not whether children are taught about the details of a particular religion but whether they are expected to believe that in defiance of all logic it is normal too believe in a disembodied entity for the existance of which no credible evidence can be presented.

I think you very neatly demonstrate one of the issues here - you went back to the religion you were indoctrinated in taught about as a child. Did you go and learn about all the other faiths before you made your decision to return to the Christian church?

Your final question also raises another apposite one - How can anyone make a real decision about religion if they're brought up in a single faith while being taught that anyone who believes otherwise is deeply and fundamentally wrong?

through independent study when they're older? As long as children grow up with the knowledge that religions exist alongside other philosophies, then if they're curious enough about it they'll eventually investigate and find out about it themselves. Just like children of non-vegetarians do and decide to become vegetarians (for a while or forever), or children of non-french-speakers decide to take french or children of parents who aren't interested in antiquity decide to study and become archaeologists etc etc. Why would making a decision later in life, be not a 'real' decision?

I think an exposure to faith is a good thing, but if you follow one particular faith, you need to accept that you are rather channelling your child into that one. I don't see a problem with that, it's just the way it is.

The one thing I find odd about the add is the words "Anarchist child" right above the main words. Is this really a common religion?

I wrote a long post but then refreshed and Snorbs wrote it for me, ina much clearer fashion.

Thing is from our point of view that's like saying "how can kids grow up and have an informed opinion about drugs if we don't give them some now"

I don't expect you to agree about what religion is. I'm just explaining how some of us feel. If you thought that any activity was bad then you would be dubious about it bring taught to your kids wouldn't you.

Speaking for myself I don't mind people being religious or even teaching kids that it exists (since it clearly does). I only object to it being pushed on us.

That mostly means in school, but can also include people posting on buses (the church did it first)

I think it would be awfully hard to have a religious fath and not bring your child up within it. And I can't think why anyone with a religious faith would want to do that. So I think this campaign is really on a hiding to nothing. Not sure what purpose it serves other to make those who already agree with it's ethos feel supported. Which is OK of course, but perhaps not as evangelical (for want of a better word ) as intended.

MaryMotherofCheeses, the "anarchist child" bit was addressed in the article with a quote from Dawkins hisself:

'As Richard Dawkins states, "Nobody would seriously describe a tiny child as a 'Marxist child' or an 'Anarchist child' or a 'Post-modernist child'. Yet children are routinely labelled with the religion of their parents. We need to encourage people to think carefully before labelling any child too young to know their own opinions, and our adverts will help to do that."'

I like the atheist bus campaign, and have donated to it despite not being an atheist.

And looking at that poster it doesn't say don't expose children to any religion, it's just saying don't impose one on them. Which is fair enough, and I think giving children more information about a range of religions will lead to more well rounded kids, who should then be less judgemental and more tolerant of beliefs other than their own.

loved the atheist bus campaign and financially supported it too

Well, children growing up without religious indoctrination (as opposed to learning about religious beliefs) may well grow up regarding religion as irrelevant to their own lives.

But that would be a good thing.

I thought it was more of an agnostic bus campaign?

'How are children going to grow up and suddenly decide which (if any) religion they adhere to, if they've had no real exposure to any of the various religions during their upbringing?'

well, there you go RockinSockBunnies. Without children being exposed to religion, it seems likely to most atheists that there would be a lot less religion. So obviously we/they would see that as a good thing.

It is incredible how many Christian conversion stories that seem to be intended to be amazingly inspiring start with 'I was brought up in a Christian family and went to church until I was 6/12/16, but had never really understood the reality of the love of Jesus until...' What proportion of Christian conversions are reconversions of people who by any other measure would be considered at the very least culturally Christian already? And if God can only get to serious numbers of people who have been brought up as Christians already, doesn't that suggest that the differentiating factor is the actions of humans, not the presence of God?

disclosure: i am an atheist/agnostic PCC member and occasional churchgoer (at present).

"I thought it was more of an agnostic bus campaign?"

It's actually called the "atheist bus campaign", it has connection to Richard Dawkins (who incidentally I think goes a little too far into anti-religion), but is being aimed at all beliefs.

The atheist bus adverts were banned where we live, but allowed about 20km up the road. Cantonal politics, you've got to love them.

I'm not sure that I agree with the posters who are saying that adults can make an informed decision about religion. Adult friends of mine who never attended church/synagogue/mosque etc as children, have no idea how to access such religious institutions now that they're adults.

Friends are unsure what to do in a church (in terms of following the service), worried that people will know that they're somehow doing it 'wrong'.

But isn't that the same issue if someone was raised Christian but then decided to follow, say, Hinduism? Or even if they changed from a Pentecostal church to a Roman Catholic one?

I don't mind about the buses/billboards. I do however put this sort of atheist into pretty much the same box as a Christian/Hindu/Muslim what have you who feel the need to advertise.

Whatever floats your boat.

"The atheist bus adverts were banned where we live, but allowed about 20km up the road." Where on earth do you live?

I don't see that this campaign is going to change anyone's views really.

I am a Christian, so I have raised my child to know about Christianity, and he has been "exposed" to it regularly.

But that doesn't mean that I "label" him as a Christian child, or prevent him from choosing for himself as he gets older.

He is now 16, and when we recently had a form to fill out for school, I asked him what box he wanted me to tick. He still picked "Christian", but it wouldn't surprise me if he decides that he isn't at some stage. And I'll be fine with that decision.

If he decides he isn't, then I would guess that he's likely to decide that he doesn't need/want religion at all - I don't think it's very likely that he would switch to another one, though he knows about several from RE. Though if he has friends who are devout believers in something, then he might be tempted.

If later in life he does get an interest in religion, then yes he's likely to go back to Christianity rather than pick one at random. Is that so terrible?

Anyway, what I mean is we all raise our children in a way which demonstrates our own beliefs and attitudes. But good parents will accept that their children may make other decisions, and respect that.

And that's what the campaign is about AMumInScotland, encouraging more parents to think like you.

My parents are both Christian (CofE and RC) so decided against raising me as either type, instead left me to make my own choices, while still practising their own faith and therefore exposing me to it. I then went to a very multicultural school, learnt about a lot of other faiths, and in the end decided to go with something toally different.

I'm glad I was bought up the way I was, always free to decide my own beliefs for myself. My brother, obviously with the same upbringing is still undecided, though I think he leans more towards atheism. Maybe one day he'll decide that Christianity is for him, and that's good. Same goes for your son, you aren't forcing him, you are letting him decide. Which is the way religion should be IMO, it's a very personal thing.

I don't necessarily think it will change anyone's beliefs, but I applaud them for trying.

Morloth > It is different to advertising another religion, as it isn't actually saying you should be atheist. Just that you should be aware of other choices.

Any adult who 'has no idea how to access' a church is being a bit feeble IMO. There's a ruddy great big door and a notice outside giving times of services.

I'm sure anyone who manages to live independently can work out how to go in...

Kaloki "It is different to advertising another religion, as it isn't actually saying you should be atheist. Just that you should be aware of other choices."

Everyone who cares already knows that. Atheism is just another theism as far as I am concerned. I don't trust anyone who thinks they know anything about whether there is a God or afterlife.

I toss them into the same group as all the other fundies and make a mental note of "Do Not Engage" (in RL of course, online I like to poke people and watch them go off).