AC Grayling gets it bang on re faith group daftness.

[SolidGoldBangers]

There's a pint on the bar for him all right. Good effort.

Also last I looked atheists were not allowed to discrimate against religious people whereas it's ok the other way around.

I was responding to this quotation of yours Onager. I think what you meant to say was that the christian church in this country discriminates unfairly, rather than "religious people can discriminate against atheists" which is what the above seems to suggest.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make in your last post. That the Christian church discriminates in it's employment policy? I agree, it does, and it should be stamped out by law. I would imagine that around 50% of the church would agree with this (based on previous polls).

flockwallpaper: You are right, it IS confusing: It is actually the Catholic Adoption Agencies that had a problem with the change of law (although most of them are still operating, actually - they have just disassociated themselves from Rome - which is the true objector here - and are working under new names).

Against ordination of women - this is around 14% of the CofE, so actually very small.

(These facts from my head so may be a bit wrong)

Well, I think Onager's criteria for "accceptable discrimination/contempt" is that if you have feelings (e.g. of a spiritual need) but don't act on them.>>

Can hardly argue with that since it doesn't appear to make any sense. Want to have another run at it?

Onager: Why is it okay to be prejudiced against religious people? Can you explain?

just because you love someone doesn't mean that you necessarily approve of what they do or let them do exactly as they want. It is a love of the Phileo/Philia kind - "brotherly" love (though those of us with children might like to question just what is brotherly "love" ),

It is perfectly possible to "love" someone and still not agree with what they do/say/think/live.

well I attend a CoE church and there's definitel no discrimination of women in ours.

Female Vicar
Female Organist
3 out of 4 churh wardens are women
Female Church Treasurer
all of the lay people (and those currently training in the various areas) are also all female.

The poor men in our church felt so much on the fringes they set up their own men's group run by themselves so that they could have a say as well

Stuffitllama, I still don't get you. I think you are confusing prejudice and discrimination. Prejudice is a set of beliefs, discrimination is the action based on a set of beliefs. However much some of the more err...aggressive.. athiests may be on this board, they can't discriminate against the believers on this board simply because they don't have the power to stop them posting.

MrsMerryHenry, I think we are in agreement here. The Thought for the Day issue is a real However, I am, as I'm sure you are too, regularly accosted by believers wanting to push their beliefs onto me. Though addimttendly the Hare Krishnas that did it last night added a song and a dance for good measure. They were quite sweet really. Apart from an innoccous sign on the side of a bus, and Richard dwakins pontificating from the telly, I haven't seen a lot of athiest propoganda as of late.

It seems to me that each side is just saying "But you don't understand...If you just read this you would see the light. Respect my beliefs because I'm right". Now I confess i was raised in a Catholic household, did a degree in religious studies (so you can't accuse me of not reading the books and trying to understand) but, after much thought it seems to me that all religions are bolleaux. I just wish I could walk down Oxford Street once without someone trying to convince me otherwise. Not that this does not mean that people are not genuinely comforted and have their life enhanced by their beliefs. In some ways I wish I could believe in a God, is seems so much fun. However, what I do object to is when the lives of my family and friends are curtailed and restricted by someone elses religious belief. You can believe what you like, but keep your beliefs out of my bedroom thank you very much.

"Respect my beliefs because I'm right".

No - yes I do believe my beliefs are right. But that doesn't mean that I resort to calling anyone that doesn't believe them a myriad of insulting names or question their intelligence.

"However, what I do object to is when the lives of my family and friends are curtailed and restricted by someone elses religious belief."

how does that happen?

I get a bit fed up with hearing 'the church' this and 'the church' that, usually followed by some negative comment that tars every christian with the same brush. Especially when the christians I know personally are trying to live their lives as Jesus did, which I wholly respect. I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way.

Onager, why is it okay to be prejudiced against people with a faith?

Yes: I'm accusing the atheists on this thread of prejudice. I do know the difference and I think you'll find I did manage to point it out myself.

It is another point again that the atheists on this thread have been rude and aggressive simply because they are talking to religious believers. That is, rude and aggressive on the grounds of prejudice? Now would you say it's alright to be rude and aggressive on the grounds of prejudice?

Onagar, why would you want to make my statement apply to everything? It was written in the context of internal church policy.

But in an attempt to further your analogy, if there was an abuse going on in a family you did not know or have connection to and the police and social services were already involved, would you still feel the need to get involved?

flockwallpaper (great name BTW) says in her post that these discussions are already happening in the CoE.

I agree with all the posts suggesting that the contempt (prejudice? maybe, maybe not) expressed by atheists for people of faith is counterproductive, and I also do not see contempt for atheists by persons of faith demonstrated here.

And how does this relate to the OP? I think that what's being suggested is that faith groups represent discrimination and if they were permitted to advise government bodies that the government would then make discriminatory policies. Anyone care to pick apart the assumptions in that claim?

Slug: I appreciate that Oxford Street may be different but I've not been accosted by religious believers in years. And if I occasionally was, it wouldn't bother me to be honest. Is it that different to catlogue sellers/big issue vendors/pollsters/charity recruiters? If so, why?

I don't see how you get from being approached by religious believers (which I assume you brush off the same as catalogue purveyors) to complaining that they are curtailing your freedoms in the bedroom? Unless you are keeping a vicar in your wardrobe.

I don't think anyone has said that religious people should be listened to because they are right. I think people are just saying they think it's inappropriate that people name-call, deliberately use language to offend them and treat them as though they are intellectually inferior.

They're an ADVISORY GROUP - they won't be making policies up, they won't have the power to vote in legislation. And the Government will probably ignore 99.99% of what they say anyhow (look at the recent Drugs Advisory panel thing in the news )

PMSL @ keeping a vicar in the wardrobe

slug - how are others' religious beliefs manifesting themselves in your bedroom?

[intrigued]

There also seems to be another point being made about faith groups not being representative . . .

Am I missing any other arguments being made in favour of the Grayling essay?

oh never mind that zazi - we all want to know how other peoples religious beliefs affect slug in the bedroom

okay, I'm in . . .

alwayslookingforanswers. My best friend was legally not allowed to have sex until he was 2 years older than the rest of us. Forunately that law was repealed, but not without a lot of dissent from the Bishops in the House of Lords. He was also, until recently, not allowed to have his partner make decisions for him if he was hospitalied or incapable. Some adoption agencies will not consider him, not because he would not make a fantastic dad, but because they morally object to the way he was born. He cannot donate blood nor be on the organ donor register. He can be refused a job in religiously affiliated schools and in church organisations, even if he is the best person for the job, simply because of who he chooses to love. He cannot hold hands with his partner in the street out of the very real fear of being assulted by people who use religion to justify their hate of him. He has also been refused hotel rooms when travelling with his partner. And that's just in Britain in 2009. Travelling to other countries as a couple is almost impossible in some respects.

Morningpaper, outside the Brixton tube station there is a guy who spends many, many hours preaching. Every time he sees me he launches into a hellfire and damnation speech about the evils of women and homosexuals. Why, I don't know, something to do with the short hair I had for a while maybe. For the most part it is amusing, but it gets tiresome, especially as it appears that, even though I have never spoken to him, he thinks I am an evil lesbian. He once saw me with a friend and launched into a tirade bout evil women, shouting at her not to associate with the likes of me. While it was amusing that he had completely miosread the situation, she's the lesbian, not me, it is, however was intrusive and occasionally frighting part of my daily life until I moved away.

Now that that, admittedly slightly insane, man is out of my life, I still am regularly wakened up early on Saturday mornings by the Jehovas Witnesses, even though I have had made it very clear that the lady's not for converting. I get accosted at train stations by nice young people who ask directions then invite me to their church. I get hissed at by the Muslim boys I used to teach because I don't wear a scarf and therefore am, obviously to their minds, constantly up for it and deserve everything I get, and have to dodge the Scientologists who block the footpath and try and get me to do a 'personality' test every single day on my way to the tube. It gets tiresome. I can't remember the last time I had an athiest shouting at me in the street "Forget all belief in God or suffer eternal damnation in Hell"

And, of course, I was explicitly discriminated against in my choice of school for my DD, but that's a whole other thread.

Slug, I am very sorry that you have experience all that. If I was accosted every day by religious people I would complain to the police. Did you ever do this?

"He cannot donate blood nor be on the organ donor register."

well that applies to a lot of people. I can't donate blood - because I've slept with someone from the "wrong" part of the world, and DH can't because he's from there (and slept with people out there before he met me).

"e cannot hold hands with his partner in the street out of the very real fear of being assulted by people who use religion to justify their hate of him."

And what of those people who various religions who are assaulted because of how they look (wearing their "religious" dress?).

Of course there are many things which are still very biased against Homosexuals in this country - but apart from the fact that back in history laws were made to dsciminated against them what has the house of Lords/Commons taking their time to sort these issues out got to do with it?

I'd hazard a good guess that many that opposed it did it not on religious grounds, but on their own personal prejudice. Or are you telling me that it's only "people of faith" who thing homosexuality is "wrong"?? Of course overseas the issues remain, but again that is often a deeply rooted cultural feeling not one based on religion.

And as for the people on the street - frankly I'd bloody fed up of EDF and some market research people that ALWAYS accost me as I go into the shopping centre in town.

I must admit that I have gay friends who have been assaulted but each time has been by young men, who I suspect do not spend a lot of time down at the synagogue

Homophobia is always wrong, whether you are religious or not. And some of the things you meantioned are due to society's issues with homosexuality. But not all religious people are homophobic - plenty do a lot of anti-homophobia work. You could use similar arguments to say that the Conservative party is homophobic, looking at their voting record. Tarring all with the same brush is wrong.

alwayslookingforanswers this and this and this and this and of course this is the sort of thing I mean. I could go on, but you get the picture. Its a major problem in the East End of london at the moment. Spitfields is becoming a bit of a 'no-go' area according to a lot of my mates. Gangs of Muslim boys roaming the streets looking for someone to pick on. Now I'm not saying that religion is behind all the attacks, but it is used to justify a lot of them. I can't imagine where else these people would come up with the idea in the first place? It's not taught in the schools, it's not taught in science, the only place that homophobia is considered acceptable ifnot actively encouraged is within the teachings of many (though not all) religions. Tis part of the social control aspect as far as I can see.

Morningpaper, why would I complain to the police? He is allowed his beliefs and I wouldn't want to be accused of denying him his right to speak his beliefs now would I?

Slug, with all due respect, your links certainly don't back up your claim that there are 'gangs of Muslim boys' behind them.

The first one was an attack by two blonde girls and a boy; the second doesn't have any idea; the third was a white couple in their fifties; the fourth it doesn't say, although the attack was roundly condemned by the Muslim councillor; and the final link doesn't say.

I'm not denying that there are homophobic people in religious organisations, of course there are, but there are homophobic people in all walks of life.

If I was being approached by the same people every day on my way to work or shouted at in the street, I would make a complain to the police. You are obviously being singled out as perhaps 30,000 people use Brixton station every morning.

Those stories are of course all absolutely awful, but not one of them say anything about any religious motivation behind the homophobia displayed by those thugs.

If I googled I could find stories of equally horrifying attacks that were the result of racism and religion such as this but it would prove nothing other than there are violent thugs living in our society with homophobic, racist and anti-religious views.