Parents lose right of withdrawal of their children from Sex and Relationship Education once they reach 15.

[Thandeka]

Please discuss your reactions to this news as I would be very interested to read them.

Personally I think this is a great thing but then I am biased as I work in young people's sexual health.

P.S "Parental opt out" is a much better word sorry as "withdrawal isn't necessarily a good word to use in relation to sex ed- hehe!

I would imagine teenage pregnancies are not so common amoungst Muslim girls and would be covered up by a very ashamed family. But I wouldn't like to assume that the rate of teen parents is so low for Muslim boys. I know that some of the same girls who are guarded from sex ed and taught about no sex before marriage and nothing about STIs can be the same girls shipped off at 15 to marry.

Religion plays no part in ensuring our teens are sexually safe.

The state has a duty to ensure all children are safe, if parents want to ensure their child has a particular morality or religious code about sex then it is up to them to teach it alongside the informative stuff at school.

I can't quite believe anyone would be ignorant to think that parental control is more important than the safety of all.

"Maybe that is not because Muslim are against sex education as a biology topic IYSWIM but are opposed to it as it is not taking in consideration something that Muslims see as part of such education which is : no sex before marriage"

But faith schools can teach the topic in context with their own faith, so the lesson could say "we believe in no sex before marriage but here are the biological facts about how humans reproduce, oh and by the way, did we mention that this should be within marriage?"

"gorionine, every parent can make that choice by home educating." Well no, as I think Iam prefectly able to teach my childern about sex education, but not other subjects so I could not HE my children.

"" Religion plays no part in ensuring our teens are sexually safe."" I think you are partly right posieparker. I just pointed that out because of the "the Muslim council is against it" comment (one of the very first posts) that made it sound like the problem of teen pregnancies in UK was mainly due to the fact that the Muslim council was against compulsory sex education in school. (I extapolated a bit though

I do not think it is about parental controle as opposed to safety, it is parental control in a bid to actually make it safer.

I admit I would be reluctant for my Dcs (girls & boys) to learn that they should be aloud to have sex regardless of the fact they are not mature enough or in an a relationship that is commited and meant to last (not all commitment last forever I know, but at least, the initial intention is to stand by eachother IYSWIM) and that the morning after pill or abotions are no big deal and could be performed without your parents being involved at all.

I would like my Dcs to be taught that sexual relashionship are a beautiful part of the life of a couple, that sex is pleasurable, and not only a way to have babies but that the risk of being pregnant can only happen if you actually do have sex. I would like them to learn that having sex is a responsability that will have consequnces for the rest of their life wether you are actually having a baby or go through the abortion route and that there is no such thing a "quick fix".

Gorione: "I would like my Dcs to be taught that sexual relashionship are a beautiful part of the life of a couple, that sex is pleasurable, and not only a way to have babies but that the risk of being pregnant can only happen if you actually do have sex. I would like them to learn that having sex is a responsability that will have consequnces for the rest of their life wether you are actually having a baby or go through the abortion route and that there is no such thing a "quick fix"."

I absolutely agree with your last paragraph but I can't see how factual information from the school interferes with or alters your right to teach this at all. If anything, it's likely to back it up.

IMO your line about "the morning after pill or abotions are no big deal and could be performed without your parents being involved at all" is utter crap. they may get this information from their peers but absolutely NOT from a school, certainly this was NEVER the line when I did sex ed at school, not so long ago.

I meant that the "no big deal" bit is crap. The bit about it being potentially possible not to involve parents is true, but why do you need to protect them from this knowledge? As I say, they will get that information from their peers anyway, very likely. Far better to receive the facts calmly with the rest of their age-group, then be yanked out of classes and left to hear about the lesson afterwards in a garbled version from their mates.

where is the muslim council quote? i cant see it in article and isnt in musclim council of britain press releases?

Never in my life have I been so happy to be wrong!

Still, I would rather not take the risk if I am given a choice. I know that it won't be said in so many words "the morning after pill or abotions are no big deal and could be performed without your parents being involved at all", but I do not think they are going to insist as much as I would like on all the implications of these two options. I might be very wrong but I am assuming that if one of my Dcs said, during a sex education lesson, "My mum thinks that sex before mariage is not such a good idea" the comment they might get from a teacher would not be "She is right you know" but more on the "Why, it is such a natural part of life...."lines. Yes I am probably paranoid but hey that is just how I feel.

I am not lobbying for a total ban of sex education in schools but anything compulsory (that involves morals, not math or English) does worry me.

littleduck, it is not a quote from the Muslim Council of Britain, it is copied and pasted from this post :

By posieparker Thu 05-Nov-09 18:08:22
""Muslim council thinks it's terrible, ffs, whereas Catholic and CofE are fine with this.""

Oh and littleducks, thanks for the link, I will bookmarkk it!

sorry, i realise that, i wanted to know where posieparker got that info from and what was actually said and by whom as we were all discussing it

I wouldn't expect the teacher to have either of those 2 responses gorionine. I would hope that they would be stresssing that everyone has their own view and there is no need to be pressurised into anything at all that you don't want to do. I would have thought that the value was in hearing all views, rather than just the ones of the parent, and having open discussion. DCs, even much younger than 15yrs, have discerning minds-they question. My DSs are remarkably sensible-I would think that I had done a very bad job if my 15yr old was to say 'it must be right because Miss XXXX say so'! Some people seem to be paranoid that one word from someone other than themselves is going to brainwash their DC! I would have thought that one great value was that the DC would be able to ask questions that they might not like to put to a parent. The 2 should complement each other, as a home school partnership.

orionine Fri 06-Nov-09 13:22:46

"I might be very wrong but I am assuming that if one of my Dcs said, during a sex education lesson, "My mum thinks that sex before mariage is not such a good idea" the comment they might get from a teacher would not be "She is right you know" but more on the "Why, it is such a natural part of life...."lines."

I would be very surprised if the teacher answered with either of those lines tbh. They are not there to promote pre-marital sex, you know. Any more than they are there to promote total abstinence, or indeed anything else.

What the teacher is almost certainly going to say is, 'people have different takes on this and you will each one of you have to make up your own minds as to what you think is right. I can't do that for you. Hopefully these lessons will give you enough confidence never to let yourself be pressurised into sex if you don't want it. But if you do have sex - these are some sensible precautions....'

I would also want the teacher to point out that marriage is not in itself a protection again STDs (unless you can be absolutely certain that your intended is a virgin- many young married people have slipped up on that one).

Though tbh (since we are discussing older children here) if I were the teacher, I would be somewhat taken aback by a 16yo who said 'my mum thinks' rather than 'I think'. These are people approaching adulthood, surely they should be starting to think for themselves?

' I would be somewhat taken aback by a 16yo who said 'my mum thinks' rather than 'I think'. These are people approaching adulthood, surely they should be starting to think for themselves?

I thought that too cory, it is the sort of thing that is common with the infant age DC but they have largly grown out of by 11yrs.

You are right Cory, When I pictured my children I did picture them at "today's age My comment appears silly even to me now

But I still do not like the compulsory bit.

Just to clarify, 'sex and relationships education' (to give it it's full and correct name) is not about teaching children and young people how to have sex (as the Daily Mail would love us to believe). Not is it telling young people to have sex. At primary age it focuses on relationships (as in, mum, dad, carer, brother, sister, lady next door, friend of granny's....etc), and later on on the changes at puberty. At secondary it looks at reltionships, including sexual reltionships, STIs, sexuality, emotions, different forms of contraception, where to get advice... That is a very truncated list.

What many people don't realise is that the 'mechanics' of sex are taught (and always have been) within the science curriculum, and parents have never been allowed to withdraw their kids from that. So if parents are objecting to the mechanics, then thinking that their kids won't learn how to do it if they take them out of PSHE is utterly mistaken. What their kids won't be learning about is how to form healthy, respectful relationships, how to respect others, how to make the right choices and how to limit risk to one's health.

Sermon over.

The bottom line to me seems to be -would you rather they were in with everyone else with the teacher getting a balanced view, or do you want them to have the one sided regurgitated version given afterwards by friends? Make no mistake-even if they don't ask what they missed- someone will make it their business to tell them! I know which I prefer.
I am also heavily of the opinion that the ones withdraw by the parent are the very ones who would benefit most from attending.

To me, the bottom line is who has the right to decide on who a child should be brought up and whose morals and views are sovereign - the family's or the State's?

And to play devil's advocate here... imagine a new government were elected in the future with a very different set of values. Would you be just as happy for children to be taught (for example) that homosexuality is wrong or - for that matter - that sex outside marriage is always wrong? In other words, how would you feel if your children were indoctrinated with views very different from your own, but you had no option to withdraw them from those lessons. It's easy to say that sex education should be compulsory if you basically agree with what is taught and how it is taught... but what if you felt differently? Would you still be so keen to let the state impose its views?

To me, this whole issue isn't about sex education, but about parental rights versus State rights.

See this is why I love private education they assume that you the parent will actually bring up and parent your child and they the school keep their noses out of what doesn't concern them and just get on with the business of educating them.
I am sick to death of a few bloody stupid parents who cannot be bothered to raise their children leading to the state invervening on so many levels that are just none of their business and my kids sex life is one of them.

that's where we differ, Milly Molly

to me, learning about human reproduction is no different from any other aspect of learning- as much the concern of dd's school as her French verbs and her knowledge of history

it does not mean that I will also expect to have an input in all of those

and in the end it will her job - not the school's, not mine- to draw any moral conclusions from her education

but that applies to history as much as to sex education- both have a moral dimension as far as I can see; but in neither case does the school's emphasis lie on the moral side of things

As it so happens I disagree very strongly with many aspects of history teaching in British schools. In many ways, it is still very much taught from a "heroic" standpoint, with the basic assumption that the world will have gained every time Britain or the British Empire came out top, and that anyone who worked on this is, by definition, a hero.

My reaction has not been to withdraw my children from history lessons, but to encourage them to develop an interest of their own in history and to read voraciously. I have also frankly declared my own opinions, but encouraged them to do any reading they need to test if my viewpoint is valid.

Human reproduction I have no issue whatsoever with, it's the states opinion which envitably will be presented as fact.
I remember teachers having an agenda in history as much as politics and therefore one I think is safe in the assumption that teachers who tend to be rather liberal in their beliefs will apply that to sex education.
As 16 is the age of consent I would also like the assumption be that my kids aren't doing anything before that age not acceptance that it's envitable from their teachers and peers.

Why on earth should teachers assume that a DC is sexually active before they are 16yrs because they go to sex education lessons? There will be a huge range in any class-you couldn't possibly make assumptions. One size doesn't suit all- DCs will make up their own minds.
I don't know why people insist on thinking they are empty vessels for the parent or the state to fill! I would have thought that open discussion from all sorts of places was much healthier.
I would have been absolutely furious with my mother if she had withdrawn me from a lesson at the age of 15yrs when it was the norm to go-I don't think it would have done much for our relationship.
I appreciate that many of you are coming from the position of much younger DCs, but really-if your 15yr old isn't sensible and mature and able to hold a reasoned argument and make up their own mind- it is too late, I doubt whether they ever will- and less than 3 yrs later they will be out in the big wide world without you to control. They should have achieved self control by 15yrs-or you have failed as a parent IMO. They can cope with someone other than mother giving their opinion!

"but really-if your 15yr old isn't sensible and mature and able to hold a reasoned argument and make up their own mind- it is too late, I doubt whether they ever will- and less than 3 yrs later they will be out in the big wide world without you to control. They should have achieved self control by 15yrs-or you have failed as a parent IMO."

I completely disagree with that statement and quite frankly mine will not be out in the world at 18, perhaps that's where people are going wrong and failing as parents, considering their job done after 18 years.

At 18 wouldn't you expect them to be either at University/College, travelling or working?