Pope setting up sub-branch of Catholicism for disaffected Anglicans

[Bleh]

Here. Wow.

Many people who attend a FiF church do it because of the churchmanship, not because they are anti-OoW.

I know some have been anti-OoW to start with and have changed their minds

Entirely cynical grab for more priests/worshippers by the Pope - hardly very ecumenical, is it?

My Gran was a devoted Catholic but towards the end of her life became quite liberal about birth control and married priests, on the pragmatic grounds that the supply of clergy was drying up and people were disobeying the rules on contraception anyway.

As a lapsed Anglican, I reckon the Pope is welcome to the misogynists anyway.

Quite, edam but as a not very good Catholic I would prefer the misogynists to stay where they are.

Seems like no-one wants them...

Morningpaper:

"I don't see how a FiF parish can be pro-OoW because by definition it must have passed Resolutions A, B or C ?"

What does this mean? Sorry to be thick.

Alana - are you sure that the RCs accepting all the conservatives (in Anglican terms) is going to keep the RC church conservative (in RC terms)? I mean, if some Anglican priests come ready-married, isn't this maybe a move towards an eventual general acceptance of RC priests being married? And then ... this is perhaps a step away from the notion of Woman as Great Untouchable, and maybe even women can be Catholic priests one day?
(not holding my breath)

Parishes had the choice to pass these motions effectively putting their knickers on the flag (think I've got that expression wrong):

Resolution A:
?That this parochial church council would not accept a woman as the minister who presides at or celebrates the Holy Communion or pronounces the Absolution in the Parish.?

Resolution B
?That this parochial church council would not accept a woman as the incumbent or priest-in-charge of the benefice or as a team vicar for the benefice.?

Resolution C (Petition under Act of Synod)
?That the Parochial Church Council of xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx hereby resolves to petition the Lord Bishop of zzzzzzzzz to the effect that appropriate episcopal duties in the parish of yyyyyyyyyyyyyy should be carried out in accordance with the Episcopal Ministry Act of Synod 1993.?

Forward in Faith parishes have generally passed resolutions A and B and sometimes C (I think)

But some individuals who happen to be in these parishes may not agree with those resolutions, which is how MaryBS can know people in Fif parishes who are in favour of women's ordination. Some people might feel they had to find another parish over the issue, but others may choose to stay, or else not have much choice locally!

Thanks, Morningpaper. Who in the parish votes on such matters - clergy, or clergy plus lay worshipers, or even geographical parishioners... or ...?

Sorry to ask so many questions. I was brought up RC and have never had contact with a church where doctrine was subject to discussion at a parish level. This is all very interesting to me.

(I have a feeling however that technically there is doctrinal wiggle room in RC at a parish level, in terms of who can be absolved or not, etc, but it is up to the priest as an individual - tho he may be bollocked by the bishop if he is flagrantly out of line. Does anyone else on here agree or disagree? I ask because I was brought up to imagine that doctrine was set in stone, with no allowance for personal conscience; later discoveries as an adult cast some doubt on this. I suspect that we were brought up to see personal conscience as irrelevant because it always would be for us, that is, women have no place in the hierarchy that makes decisions - priests can think about such matters but none of us ever would be prists)

I am RC and not thrilled. WHy should we get the men who don't like women or, more charitably, don't think we should be involved in anything too serious in the church? We have enough of them anyway?

abra1d - I know what you mean - it's not like anyone asked the RC church as a whole what they thought about this lot.

I suppose, being purely anecdotal, this doesn't include Africa or special men only Jesuit clubs or whatever but I don't know any RCs who are at ease with this side of things.

vezzie you are spot on, yes. It is the PCC which is a selection of 12ish parishioners, chaired by the vicar. The PCC votes on the issues and the vicar usually has the deciding vote if needs be.

Anglican parishes have an ENORMOUS amount of freedom in doctrinal voice and liturgical practice actually. Some parishes (PCCs) have voted IN FAVOUR OF gay priests, basically, explicitly voting that they want to be an inclusive church (described at www.inclusivechurch2.net/). So there is a huge amount of variation in where parishes nail their knickers.

Vezzie--I'm glad it's not just me. I love some elements of traditional Catholicism: the gorgeous old liturgy, etc, but I'm not prepared to subject my daughter to views on women's abilities which I regard as completely out of date.

abra1d - sorry to derail, and I hope you don't mind me being nosy, but what are you going to do about your daughter with respect to what you have just said - in terms of her religion?

While I respect Catholic feminists very much - I admire their grit in defending their rights to equality AND being a member of their faith - I now inflect this respect rather differently. I used to think that I was the wet for walking off and they were to be admired for sticking to their guns, hanging onto their seat at Mass despite all the figurative scowling, disapproving faces around them. Now I feel more confident that I have a responsibility to be realistic about living my life honestly for my own sake and for my daughter's; and the catholic feminists (who will never get anywhere in terms of effecting change) are supporting a pernicious regime by being a part of it.

Sigh. I just don't know, Vezzie. At the moment I've told her that she can choose whether or not she wants to be confirmed when she's about 14. By then she'll be old enough to understand what she's accepting and how it measures up to what happens elsewhere in the world.

I think I'll just have to explain my own personal compromise and the reasons for it.

I have to say that my views on women priests changed radically when I had dealings with a Church of Scotland and CoE minister respectively: both in difficult circumstances. They were just fantastic.

I suppose you wouldn't expect the Pope to look too good in a grauniad article, but I thought this was interesting.

Not sure what you mean by "Catholic feminists" abra1d, many Catholics believe that women should be ordained not because of equal rights, but because they genuinely cannot see a problem with the ordination of women - that Jesus chose only men for his apostles just won't wash! Not that I'm trying to start a debate on it, but I've met many Anglican priests who are women, a few of whom are Anglo-Catholic, and I have no doubt of their calling to ordained ministry.

This is also an interesting article, and one which I think many RCs would agree with.

My (RC) mother doesn't agree with this compromise by the Pope.

From my POV (Anglo Catholic former RC), I think any defection to the RCC by Anglo Catholics leaves an imbalance in the C of E, which could become more low church or evangelical. Not that I have a problem with either, but it is not my worship style (I like attending a Eucharist every week for instance!)

Erm, I didn't mention Catholic feminists, MaryBS. I also said that I have been impressed with protestant female clergy I've met. So I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be debating about!

Sorry, that was vezzie who said that

Fascinating article, Mangos.

There are catholic feminists? . Becoming aware of feminism as a teenager was part and parcel of me rejecting catholicism. I find it hard to reconcile the prinicples of feminism with anything remotely to do with the catholic faith. I am now an atheist.

Sometimes I feel that being a woman in many organised religions is like turning up at a party where you have been personally invited by the host but they're not there and you are made to feel very uncomfortable by all the other guests.

Worshipping in a church that invites people from another religion into it because they share a common misogyny is just beyond my powers of comprehension. Why don't they just drop the whole celibacy thing themselves?

I think that will be a big bone of contention. George Pitcher, in The Times, was pointing out that many (most) ango-catholic priests were gay and the CoE was quite good at turning a blind eye to this, as long as they didn't scare the horses. Pope B. doesn't really do blind-eye-turning.

Richard Dawkins article here.