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Tories' plans to take half a million people off incapacity benefits

129 replies

policywonk · 06/10/2009 11:27

There's not much detail available (that I've been able to find) but the story in a nutshell is here

IIRC, you have to fill in a vast form and be signed off by a GP to receive incapacity benefit. What 'medical assessment' are the Tories going to devise that's going to be more accurate than that? Or are they just looking for a way to take vulnerable people off higher rates of benefits?

Or am I missing something?

OP posts:
pointyhat · 06/10/2009 20:05

Please, fox, don;t use the word 'incentivise'. It sets my teeth on edge.

foxinsocks · 06/10/2009 20:05

oh I love it. It's great politic speak.

foxinsocks · 06/10/2009 20:06

but does it make your teeth itch pointy? that's the defining moment I feel

pointyhat · 06/10/2009 20:06

Taken from the Magnificent World of Marketing Jargon

pointyhat · 06/10/2009 20:07

You set my teeth on edge
You think you're a vegetable

Sing along

foxinsocks · 06/10/2009 20:10

cucumber
cabbage
and cauliflower

is that right or have I missed a carrot or something

pointyhat · 06/10/2009 20:13

courgette perhaps

foxinsocks · 06/10/2009 20:15

blue horizons pointy

that's what I feel like now tbh

the thought of not seeing the sun again for about 6 months is most disappointing and in a few weeks, the clocks will go back and we get to leave the house in darkness and come back in darkness arrghh!

pointyhat · 06/10/2009 20:18

don't bother about the darkness. Light nights will come back again.

Back to the op, I think reviewing the system is a good thing. Doing it to try to win an election is dodgy.

expatinscotland · 06/10/2009 22:12

There's a platform to run on! Hit the poor with a cudgel during a recession. That took a real brainiac to invent. DC's a real poster boy for the failure of private education.

What a fucking dimwit.

Oh, the scroungers! All whilst protecting people like his wife, who stands to inherit £20m, and high earners.

I'd find it all funny if there wasn't the underlying assumption that sheeple are too stupid to see behind the self-righteous posturing.

tryingherbest · 06/10/2009 22:27

Not great to hit the poor but it's general knowledge that if you claim mental illness they just have to take your word for it.

That's alot of mentally ill in the UK and I donb't buy it quite honestly.

Labour would also be forced to tackle this issue if they thought for a second they'd be in power in the near future.

edam · 06/10/2009 22:33

"it's general knowledge that if you claim mental illness they just have to take your word for it"

What "general knowledge" would this be, exactly? Sounds fairly insulting to doctors and patients who do have mental illness to me. Doctors diagnose patients, they don't just "take your word for it". And mental illness is a bit more complicated than telling your doctor you feel a bit down.

morocco · 06/10/2009 22:36

no they don't just have to take your word for it, tryingherbest!

PeachyTentativelyPosting · 06/10/2009 23:46

Wow really tryingherbest?

I'm off up to the CAHMs unit next week, I shall poke a few adolescent in patients with a sharp stick shall I< tell them to get their acts together.

What do you imagine Psychs and the like do? Just because these things are invisible does not mean they are not regualted (eer heard of DSM IV?) or measurable by professionals.

foxinsocks · 07/10/2009 08:11

well obviously peachy they just have to snap out of it and pull themselves together. It's so simple, I don't know why we didn't think of it before

sarah293 · 07/10/2009 08:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

PeachyTentativelyPosting · 07/10/2009 09:13

It's a similar system to CA Riv, a supposeed acknowledgement of lack of choice in the matter- like CA most of it gets removed from other benefits with (IIRC) @ £20 extra a weel as that 'bonus'

You have to sign yourself off as unavailable for work; perhaps your friend has decided they can work which of course they can, if anyone gives them a chance- there being the important bit.

DH was obviously ill when he was looking for his last job, nobody saw him past interview. He didn't get IB but perhaps should have done had we known about it. It's not a mtter of just get a job and pull yourself out- employers can tell if someone is different at interview and they don't offer, the bloke who took an eventual punt of DH did make a difference but by then house was gone, DH had close to 200 interviews beforehand.

edam · 07/10/2009 09:39

Especially during a recession - even if companies do start recruiting, can't see too many employers being open-minded about taking on someone who has had a history of illness over someone who hasn't at the moment. Even worse with mental illness.

policywonk · 07/10/2009 11:31

This has been very interesting, thank you. Nice to have a political thread that hasn't descended into bad temper. The most depressing thing for me has been realising that Labour is already engaged on penalising those on IB - it's just barely been reported.

Also infuriating to see that some posters believe that mental illness (or its lack) is something that can easily be diagnosed by non-professionals. Mental illness affects (I think) one in ten people over the course of a lifetime. I guess some of these posters will have their beliefs challenged rather painfully in the years to come.

OP posts:
freudianslips · 07/10/2009 12:49

Quote from policywonk:
"I also see the point about independent assessors having more time to be up to date with the legal aspects. But will they be properly medically trained? Will they be fully up to date with the clinical aspects?"

I can respond to this point, Policywonk, because I spoke to DH about this last night and he told me he bumped into one of the assessors themselves at a primary care conference some months ago.

The assessor has been a GP for 12 years. He works 2 days doing assessments (not for a private company, for the department of health) and three/four days a week at his usual surgery so he's up to date on clinical work. I think it's imperative to have good, impartial, experienced generalist doctors involved who are set no targets at all - this chap certainly wasn't working to targets (in my opinion nurse practitioners simply wouldn't have had the years of diagnostic training you need to do this system justice).

He is a very sympathetic chap and tries to take account of the fact that this is the first time he has met each patient. The good thing is, the GP can still have acted as an advocate for the patient before turning up, so most patients with a strong claim have been well prepared and assisted by their existing doctors and simply sail through the process.

The assessor says that one of the things that he likes about the process is that he feels like he is often helping people who WANT to get back into work, get back into work by giving them the confidence in their own capabilities to apply for different kinds of jobs. He also says he feels like he is helping people who need benefits receive them with the minimum of extra fuss - they get an expert assessment they can trust and use, if necessary, in court. In short, the money ends up going where it is most needed. I struggle to see how this system is 'unfair' if simply applied knowledgably and impartially to individuals.

One thing the assessor mentioned to DH was that he often looks out of his first floor window to watch individuals approach and leave the building in which the assessments have taken place. He has, on a couple of occasions, noted limps appear and disappear using this method. He also recalls one young woman who had seemed to him desparately depressed and unable even to form sentences through her tears suddenly whip out a mobile phone upon leaving, shout (loudly enough for it to come through the window), "I got him good - sucka!!" and laugh uproariously for a good two minutes. These individuals ARE the minority but their cases do highlight the fact that fraud within this system should - for moral reasons - cease. It simply is not fair to let it continue. And frankly I don't care whether this saves us money or not - what I care about is money reaching those who truly need it.

Just to finish this incredibly long post with an anecdote that highlights why the current system needs changing. DH met with a young woman keen to discuss her IB claim. She had just turned 18. She walked in, and without saying a word plonked the form on his desk. DH began to try to get her to discuss her symptoms (she had not been near a doctor, or a hospital, during the last two and a half years so he was not immediately sure what she had come to discuss) but she cut him off, explaining that she had a hairdressers appointment. He asked, even more confused, what she felt was preventing her from being able to engage in work. She explained, rolling her eyes, that there were no jobs, "and I'm depressed, you know?". DH tried to explore these feelings in more detail, tried to administer the Beck depression scale and tried to suggest a range of solutions such as an urgent referral to a counsellor or a CPN. The woman became increasingly impatient, refused to complete the scale - even verbally - because of aforementioned hair appointment and refused DH's offer of an urgent double appointment later in the day to talk about this when she had more time. At the end of the consultation, she asked him if he was going to sign the form or not. DH said no, not now, not without having had more of a chance to talk to you. The woman immediately left, submitted a formal complaint and returned the next day - to see a different doctor - with three of her older brothers in tow. Again, the form was refused and another complaint issued. The week after, the woman successfully had her form signed by a locum.

As for why doctors surgeries do not complain about harrassment etc. very often, there are several reasons. Notably, the PCT rarely supports them in such claims unless someone has actually ended up in hospital. They feel it generates negative publicity and is against the 'customer service' ethos towards which today's NHS is striving. In addition, most GPs do not like assuming an adverserial attitude towards their patients, and would rather conduct informal mediation / try to move the patient to a different practice before involving the police. Lastly, a GP who has been alone with a threatening patient often faces a serious counterclaim from said patient if he/she dares complain - and whilst the PCT is not obligated to care about patients threatening doctors (there is a real 'it's all part of the job' attitude) it is obligated to care about doctors allegedly threatening / doing anything else to patients.

Phew. If anyone read all that, well done. I was just delighted that DH had actually met one of these fabled assessors in the flesh and was able to share his experiences. I hope that any future assessment system employs people with as much genuine empathy and clinical knowledge but as much backbone as this guy seems to possess.

PeachyTentativelyPosting · 07/10/2009 13:40

That does sound positive FS.I am always a bit wary; i;ve heard such horrors of DLA assessors- from people sat there in tears at the 'awfulness of your situation' (WTF?) to completely oblivious to obvious Sn and asking someone who is blind (as a factor of multiple disabilities) if they can really see.

Am absolutely in agreement that fraud needs tos top- as much for the benefit of the genuines as everyone else. And that people who threaten GPs should be arrested.

Theiore does seem to be a msassive misunderstanding of what real MH issues mean. A lowlevelof depression is not an uncommon thing and wellworth treating but is not life ruining; severe depression OTOH is a terminal disease at the extreme. Dh was that severe, yet the referral route was via specialist who was on LT sick so he received no supprt at all and it all fell to me.What the GP didn't know was that I have experience in the field (actually I have experience in most fields LOL- too much temping in my twenties, though this wasnt as a temp- actually trained aat a big old style MH hopspital) and could just about cope- but by doing so I was also coping wth 2 disabled children and it was hell of a lot to ask of anyone.

tryingherbest · 07/10/2009 14:41

The mental health issue is because you cannot really test for it - your GP cannot in all honesty sit their and decide whether you have mental health issues - have you ever visited a psychologist - they cannot read your mind and they can only, at least initially, go on what you say to them.

I could go to my gp say I'm really depressed and not functioning and get prescribed ADs - I don't have the take them.

I wouldn't diss people with mental health problems - people generally don't, but it IS a well known fact that if you cite this in your claim for benefit there is NO kind of work that someone could do and they generally get off your back.

I know 'cos I worked for benefits people and I love the fact that I'm being criticised for my so called lack of knowledge of mental health - you don't know that - I do know - I have very personal experience of it ta.

policywonk · 07/10/2009 14:44

That's very interesting FS, thanks.

OP posts:
tryingherbest · 07/10/2009 14:53

And what is the most annoying thing is that mental issues cover such a wide range of issues it means that there are some people who are able to somehow get IB when they are perfectly fit for work and many people with problems which don't look severe to the outsider but in fact affect their lives and capacities in a dreadful way who are struggling on jsa (or whatever it's called now) and doing their best to find work when in fact they could not cope.

Let's get the right people the right help.

PeachyTentativelyPosting · 07/10/2009 14:55

I an criticise you for your apaprent lack of understanding though tryingher.The two are different IMO.

MH does not equate depression. There is a vast number of disorders people can suffer from. Also some depression is testable for- have you ever met anyone with a catatonic depressive episode? That is clearly testable by observation IMO.

Many syndromes can be faked, and there are fraudsters, but an over emphasis on depressive disorders and also back injury occurs aprtly becuase of widespread occurence, and also becuase there are a lot of myyths about them.But the key absolute factor is that people who claim they have them and don't are fraudsters./ Whereas a great number of people suffer becuase of the image created by the media etc that everyone who cites these disorders is claiming falsely. That's simply not true.

My DH never got as far as Aa Psych as Is aid below, however a Psychiatrist is a medically qualified individual and very good at soruing out the genuines from the malingerers in general. The work of Psychs is something I have sat in on many debates about but they are a different sepcies; IME (a slightly different field of MH) they tend to feed back towards a dx rather than provide one.

I think it is vitally important that we don;'t let our views of the genuinely sick be clouded by fraud; and tryingher I used to work in VAT office, sometimes in the fraud / customs / investogation dept, and I did find it clouds your view of 'normal'. Unl;ess of course every pub has a Paedo ring in the abck, and every business is faking teir VAT clim- which I think probably they are not.