so what's yr take on having to sell yr house when old to fund yr care home?

[herjazz]

so in light of this what dyou reckon?

Whilst I think care for the elderly is pretty shoddy and needs looking into, I'm not against folk with reasonable assets paying towards it. Why do they need to own a house they are not living in? Why should inheritance be seen as an automatic right?

I could be due to inherit loads off my folks - but if they end up having to cash in their assets to pay for more appropriate housing and care requirements then surely that's just them using THEIR money as they should? I shouldn't be moaning their assets stay intact and untouched so I can cream off them once they are dead?

If you have no money to pay your own fees, you will not be offered a place in any care home until things have got really desperate and your family/carers have suffered complete breakdown. You will have no choice of where you end up and you may find yourself in a smelly dirty place where there is very little in the way of care on offer.

Abetedad - what you describe is the way it already is.

sorry - "ABetaDad" . Can't type now. (Should have copied and pasted the first time).

They are going to offer you the choice of pay 8k into a private companies fund - so it will be the private sector who decide whether you need care home stay.

You pay the money up fron whether you go into a care home or die before hand will be abother matter - some will die, some will last another say 15 years at home therefore only possibly needing the care home for 2-5 years. Or I suppose the private company will dish out money for people to care for you in your own home which will be cheaper than you going into a care home and you might actually be happier with.

The 8k is being branded about now but in 5 years time that figure may well be 14k and keep rising.

they going to dish out the money for the modifications to enable you to stay at home as well

That does not sound a good scheme at all.

The private company will have every incentive to simply say "no you do not need care" even when you really do.

The thing is - if you need 24/7 care, it works out very expensive to stay in your own home. You need to employ 3 people effectively, because they need holidays and days off/nights off.

You must provide them with their own room and bathroom. If you don't have a big enough house with separate facilities you can't employ a carer to live in or stay overnight.

What you can get from social services is usually a weekly or twice weekly visit from a bath attendant, up to 4 10 or 15 minute visits in 24 hours from a "carer", who will help you to get up and dressed, leave you a sandwich, possibly get a bit of shopping, and that's it.

If you don't have family to fill in all the time in between, its a bit grim TBH.

If you are very lucky, you might get some help with cleaning and/or a weekly visit from a volunteer through age concern or similar charity.

Bibbity - I think your idea is a nice one but also that you are being hugely optimistic in thinking there is much chance of it happening. One reason many elderly people are so isolated is that most of their friends have died/moved away to be with family/are suffering from health problems which means they can't do the things they would like to do together. It's one thing to plan it with a good friend and another to be 75 and not know anyone you could do it with anyway.
I don't think it's fair to say the previous generation have experienced communal living less than ours, either - even among older people who didn't go to university, lots lived in hostels/shared flats when they started work. Not to mention the men who were in the army/National Service.

Hmm interesting thread this. Currently our family are experiencing this issue with my Gran now 95, although she's not a home owner and never has been the attempt to get her some care has been somewhat interesting this last few years/weeks in particular and I totally agree the system needs to be addressed as the NHS in particular are not equipped to deal with the current ageing population. (excuse my ramblings wine has been consumed)

Long story short: Gran went potty 2 weeks ago due to her kids being away and a water infection assisting, she reported my Auntie kidnapped on the Friday to the police (try not to laugh ladies) I got roped into granny sit over the weekend, my Auntie came back and took over, the following weekend Gran was found roaming the streets by random bloke at 6am, house wide open, luckily not robbed etc. After a day of bickering with Dr's auntie managed to get Gran hospitalised.

Hospital did fab job of care of gran awaiting place at care home/going home on reciept of repair, in meantime 3 bed council house (she's had it by herself for 25 years, been in it since construction) has been empty, then hospital transfered her off the initail referal ward and this is where the NHS went wrong.......they are not equipped now to care for elderly dementia patients, she was sedated on a general ward, and in dozy state attempted to take herself to the loo and broke her hip, thus costing the whole system a pile more money and time. Hospital have now said she will not be going home, its care or bust.

My point is, if originally she'd been assessed, as an aging lady in a 3 bed house that's council owned, shouldn't someone have moved her to 1 bed sheltered accomodation? warden aided? in which she would have been better of living? another family could have had the house, Grans water infection may have been spotted and picked up earlier, thus the dementia issue delayed/avoided and the whole hospital thing which is now on going avoided too?

I realise this thread is mainly for those in use of their own houses and my parents and I have already had the downsizing discussion (ignored by them ) but surely the whole system really needs an overhaul?

Frizbe - very interesting and also very saddening post. It illustrates how badly wrong the system has gone and what husge waste of respurces is occuring.

Tried to persuade parents and PILs to downsize as well but neither will hear of it. I am sure me and DW wil not make this mistake and we are going to make sure we but a small house to retire in that can be modified if we get ill, be near the town centre, not a big garden to manatain etc.

ABetaDad, thanks for the reply! system sure does need a major overhaul eh...... I totally agree, dh and I (if we're both still surviving) will be downsizing to minimal requirements come retirement, however I'm having trouble convincing my parents of this issue as it stands....even though they can see 1st hand the bother its causing at the moment (both retired themselves). Talk about ostritch fever.

"shouldn't someone have moved her to 1 bedroom accommodation?"

No-one better to do this than the family, tbh. I work within the system and like the care system for children, the system is and can only ever be a poor shadow of what can be done by family.

The other thing to bear in mind is that it is very difficult to 'move' an adult. they can be where they want to be.

So basically I think, having worked within this system for a while now, that the family are the ones who need to be making it clear to health and social services what they are asking for - we simply can't expect 'someone' to come in and sort it out. It is always better for family to help their own loved ones, unless of course abuse of some kind is involved.

SLP we did try to get her moved as 'a family' social services said she was in sound mind and body and should stay where she was......in a house that could take a family.....which is where I think the system falls down....one person in a house that could house 6 people....I know she's lived there virtually all her married life, but its a council property, if anyone should house people according to their means, surely the council can? (ie one person, one bedroom, older person property, possibly warden aided)

Frizbe - you know my parents spent 3yrs at the top of the list for a bungalow with their council. Unfortunately there's such a huge lack of suitable properties for older and/or disabled people that moving them is much harder than it sounds.

Plus another factor in expecting family to do something about it is that sometimes when they do manage to get things "sorted" it can cause major rifts in the family which can never be sorted. 10yrs ago my mums little brother, in his early 40's at the time) had a bad fall and it became apparent he was unable to look after himself. He'd been in a 2 bedroom council flat and my mum arranged for him to be sectioned and put into sheltered accommodation of some description (I don't know all the details I was overseas at the time and my mum doesn't talk about it much).

The state was granted power of attorney (as mum was too far away and too unwell to do it herself) and although he improved greatly he never regained full control of his affairs.

To cut a long story short, he found out what my mum had done and they had hardly spoken again (apart from at family funerals) since then. He died in July from Throat and Lung cancer, with no-one by his side the rest of us family only found out that it was cancer that he'd died of after it was too late to be there and try to mend rifts.

The effects on my mum in the last few months have been horrendous she blames herself completely for how it's all panned out.

As did my great-aunt blame herself for her mothers sudden death after arranging for her to be moved from her long time family home into residential care closer to the rest of the family. She (in her 80's) was too frail herself to look after her mother and for the last 2yrs of her life blamed herself for her mothers quick (3 weeks after the move had occured - she'd been fine before the move just ver frail and prone to falls) death.

ALFA: Thanks for sharing your experiences. I guess it all boils down to the fact that the current 'system' isn't equiped to deal with our aging population eh....which is very IMO as this not only encompasses your parents, or in my experience my gran and soon to be my parents......
I do know that in our area there are a lot of 'retirement properties' being rapidly built, in 'communities' but that most are not 'council' my auntie has already looked into homing herself and her dh, but balked at the price.... as she was looking at moving sooner rather than later......
I guess we/the government need to be looking at 'affordable' retirement housing, with a view to long term 30/40 years + of living in that type of accomodation? for older generations?

riven - why should she sell up? it is her house, her decision.

as we age we face many losses - the loss of job through retirement, the loss of partner and friends through death, the loss of mobility and therefore independence to name but a few.

imagine coping with all these losses and then losing your home too.

some people choose to sell their homes and move to somewhere smaller/warden assisted/residential care that is their right.

others choose to remain in the home that they have lived in for years and that is their right.

a big thing like a move could kill an 85 year old.
stop blaming old people for the housing shortage, why should they sell their homes to make up for the greed of the buy to let people and the goverment.

riven - what do you mean by common sense? you think your mum's friend should do what others (her daughters, you) feel is best for her? so in addition to the other losses she has had you think she should also lose her right to make her own decisions AND her house?

Thing about sheltered housing is many councils are getting rid of the wardens. It's not sheltered anymore - just someone you can phone who might pop round occasionally. Breaching the contract the residents originally had with the council but apparently legally OK, even though it leaves the residents extremely vulnerable.

edam - that is true. My MIL used to work as a warden and they got rid of 75% of them so they are really just driving round a hge area fire fighting rather than being in a local area providing a good level of care.

I agree with ceres's point.

riven - surely you can see that what you describe as 'common sense' means different things to different people? And like I said before, all things are relative anyway. People make different choices in their lives, and what is unfair is penalising people for making particular choices about how to spend their money. What about the scenario I gave earlier, where one person spends their earnings on holidays, clothes and fine living, and rents a flat to live in, whereas someone else might live a frugal life because their priority is buying a larger house? Why should one be penalised for their choice?

It's all very well to talk about sharing of resources, and I am all for curbing what is generally accepted to be excessive greed (eg footballers earning tens of thousands a week etc, bankers who get ludicrous bonuses that bear no relation to their skills or ability). But home ownership is a very different thing - people have been encouraged to buy their own homes, get good jobs, be self sufficient, pay their own way, and I think many people now feel they've been sold a lie. Things have swung so far that people genuinely feel penalised for having a good work ethic and standing on their own two feet. Seriously.

Having just written out a cheque for my dd's rent (she is struggling to find employment to support herself while at Uni) having rummaged around the bottom of my handbag to check ds will have a bus fare for tomorrow (EMA? Don't make me laugh! DH and I have made the mistake of both working and staying together!), having just spent nearly £16 on two prescriptions for DH and myself... oh and of course paying ALL our own bills in full.... you really think it's reasonable that in our old age we should be forced to move/sell up our only assets to pay for care when we will have spent over 80 years between us in employment paying into the system...... Now that's taking the piss!!

a lot of old people need more than one bedroom though. my dad had a 3 bedroom house for him and sm, sha had one room(she was ill, he the other and the 3rd was his office. hardly under occupied.
mil has worked bloody hard all her life and scrimped and saved, they brought their house and she wants to stay in it until she dies and leave it to her children.
her choice, why should people like them have to sell to make way for the young? they have done their bit and now they should be able to live out their days in their homes

violet - problem is the mad house price inflation over the past 30 years means anyone who bought a house 30+ years ago is now sitting on massive un-earned wealth. Not their fault, just the result of a market that has gone hideously wrong, but it does represent a huge transfer of wealth from younger to older generations.

So the question is, why should younger people subsidise older people who have 'made' hundreds of thousands of pounds?

Current system is barking and unfair to young and old alike (people who do have assets or savings forced to be impoverished before the state will help at all is clearly wrong too, people being forced out of their homes because their spouse or the person they were caring for has to go into residential care etc. etc. etc.)

There must be a better way!