Daughters killed 'as they slept' - by mother. No comment on MN?

[yerblurt]

Thought this would have come up on Mumsnet.

An absolute horrendous situation, mother is currently on tria for murder and the trial is expected to last 2 weeks.

If you don't want to know about the details then now is the time to press that "back" button and not read any further.

This is the 2nd case in the news of a mother killing her children... what on earth is going on.

Personally I think she will be found guilty and hopefully will spend the rest of her days incarcerated for murdering her children in cold-blood.

Details from here:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cambridgeshire/8241723.stm

Daughters killed 'as they slept'
Rekha Kumari-Baker
Rekha Kumari-Baker denies murdering her two daughters

A mother accused of murdering her two daughters at their Cambridgeshire home told a special constable: "I have killed the kids", a court has heard.

Rekha Kumari-Baker, 41, of Stretham, denies murdering Davina Baker, 16, and Jasmine Baker, 13, on 13 June 2007.

Cambridge Crown Court was told Ms Kumari-Baker killed the girls as they slept at home.

The judge, Mr Justice Bean, said the defence would argue she had "diminished responsibility" for the killings.

He said they would claim she was suffering from a "serious abnormality of mind" when the offences occurred.

I've done something terrible Natalie. Please call me
Rekha Kumari-Baker's answer-phone message

Prosecutor John Farmer told the jury that Davina was stabbed 39 times in a "frenzied" attack.

Ms Kumari-Baker, a hotel worker, then attacked her younger daughter in similar fashion, he said.

Mr Farmer told the court that, after killing the children, she got dressed and twice went out in her car before ringing a friend to say: "I have done something terrible."

The court heard there was "much contention" between the defendant and her ex-husband over the care and custody of their children.

Jurors were told one theory was that Ms Kumari-Baker wanted to "wreak havoc" on her ex-husband by killing the girls.

Davina Baker, 16, and her sister Jasmine Baker, 13
Davina and Jasmine were said to be sleeping when they were killed

Mr Farmer told jurors Ms Kumari-Baker bought the knife she used to kill her children at an Asda supermarket in Cambridge on 11 June 2007.

He said she had woken early on 13 June and then gone to the girls' bedrooms and murdered them.

After killing the girls, she got dressed, got into her car and drove towards nearby Ely, the prosecutor said.

Ms Kumari-Baker then returned to her home, "showered and cleaned herself up" then went out in her car again, he added.

Shortly before 0630 BST she telephoned a friend and special police constable Natalie Barford and left an answer-phone message saying: "I've done something terrible Natalie. Please call me."

Ms Barford went to the defendant's home and she was arrested.

Confession note

Mr Farmer said the breakdown of Ms Kumari-Baker's relationship with her partner, Jeff Powell, may have acted as a trigger for the attack.

"The end of the affair was a trigger to put into motion the mindset that was going to lead her to murdering her daughters."

He added that the defendant was "concerned" that her children were spending time with her ex-husband's new girlfriend Kadi Kone.

A note found at the home of the hotel worker following the discovery of the bodies, and signed "Rekha", read: "Sorry doesn't mean anything now.

"I've killed my two daughters. I did not want them to get hurt like I did.

"Jeff hurt me so much I cannot explain. He found it difficult to compromise at times but I loved him so much.

"My kids will not be a burden with anyone any more."

The case continues.

Its not high. As compared to the number of prisioners its in keeping with the normal number of the population diagnosed with a mental illness.
Theres an increase in drug induced psychosis and depression, but i guess that says something ;)
Thats the thing command hallucinations are a symptom of different illnesses, and even some organic disorders... mental illness is such a large umbrella term.

"Many prisoners have mental health problems. 72% of male and 70% of female sentenced prisoners suffer from two or more mental health disorders. One in five prisoners have four of the five major mental health disorders.

A significant number of prisoners suffer from a psychotic disorder. 7% of male and 14% of female sentenced prisoners have a psychotic disorder; 14 and 23 times the level in the general population."

And I'd prefer if ;-)'s about psychosis and depression are left out of it it you don't mind.

And how many where ill on conviction? Mentally disordered prisoners are the minority, theres a study which shows how diagnosis whilst in prision is often inaccurate and treatments are often misjudged, but thats another thread

Drug induced psychosis and depression go up. The wink refers to prison not the illness, so yes i mind.

I should clarify i am talking about diagnosis on conviction. Ive waffled.

The woman waasn' metally ill, just evil. There is a difference.

sorry didn't explain myself well, my DH was very nearly one of those statistics last week. He's now in a pysch ward getting treatment for psychotic depression not drug induced.

I should probably stop posting on this thread actually, got myself in a state last night over a thread that was very close to the heart at the moment and this one is probably even worse for me to be on.

im sorry for your DH Always, sorry if i was insensitive.

Was doing 3 things at once, not one of them well.

I hope that your DH is better and back home soon Alwayslooking.

well not sure it'll be too soon, unfortunately I was the victim of the command hallucinations so still need to recover emotionally myself and regain my trust before he'll be able to stay here again.

How awful alwayslooking... I wish you well in trying to cope with your situation, it doesn't sound at all easy.

I raised the subject of Personality Disorder earlier. As I understand, only recently has PD been acknowledged and treated under the Mental Health umbrella. Before that it meant that people who act outside of the norm were considered simply wicked or odd or evil, etc.

I think it is a very hard thing to understand how one can be totally rational and functional in virtually every respect and yet have uncontrollable behavioural urges and bizarre patterns of behaviour. This is what makes for such a grey area between what has traditionally been considered mental illness and personality disorder.

My personal belief is that no single person is purely evil or bad, but that we are each a product of our upbringing and environment. Where these factors combine to create responses that are out of synch with the majority then we become disordered in personality and thus, I feel, to some extent mentally unwell. Certainly unable to behave consistently within the bounds of normality or acceptability.

For this reason I consider all criminals accountable but yet never inherently bad and never entirely to blame for their actions.

It is widely accepted that childhood victims of sexual abuse will often display abnormal sexual behaviour as adults. For some this will mean rape or sexual abuse by themselves as perpetrators. Does this make them evil or a product of their circumstances? If the latter, is assistance better than punishment and societal rejection?

Hobbgoblin, personality disorder is generally seen as a mental disorder but not as a mental illness. A significant proportion of the population may have personality disorders but never come to the attention of either the criminal justice system or mental health sevices. It generally means that a person may have persistently maladaptive ways of thinking and behaviour that are destructive to a greater or lesser degree.

I think the changes you are referring to are in terms of the amended Mental Health Act which basically means the criteria for detaining people with personality disorders have been changed to make it easier. This wasn't due to anything other than the Government's Public Protection agenda and imo doesn't reflect any new understanding of personality disorder.

I think this discussion is interesting but hasn't touched on the occasions when killing other people in 'cold blood' is sanctioned i.e in war. Must you be mentally ill to kill in these situations too?

hobb, I would argue very strongly that criminals are indeed to blame for their actions, otherwise you've given up on the idea of civilisation and thrown us all to the wolves.

A minority of people who have committed a crime may have a mental illness that is directly linked and renders them not responsible for that specific behaviour. But doing a bad thing is not actually diagnostic of a medical or psychiatric condition.

The way you introduce personality disorder, it sounds like you are pathologising crime and saying it's all down to factors people cannot control. I think that's a. the wrong way round and b. desperately unfair to the 99.9% of people with shitty childhoods, or mental illness, or personality disorder who do manage to avoid committing crimes, thanks very much.

The idea that no-one is beyond redemption does not mean people can evade responsibility for their behaviour.

Totally agree Edam.