Daughters killed 'as they slept' - by mother. No comment on MN?

[yerblurt]

Thought this would have come up on Mumsnet.

An absolute horrendous situation, mother is currently on tria for murder and the trial is expected to last 2 weeks.

If you don't want to know about the details then now is the time to press that "back" button and not read any further.

This is the 2nd case in the news of a mother killing her children... what on earth is going on.

Personally I think she will be found guilty and hopefully will spend the rest of her days incarcerated for murdering her children in cold-blood.

Details from here:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cambridgeshire/8241723.stm

Daughters killed 'as they slept'
Rekha Kumari-Baker
Rekha Kumari-Baker denies murdering her two daughters

A mother accused of murdering her two daughters at their Cambridgeshire home told a special constable: "I have killed the kids", a court has heard.

Rekha Kumari-Baker, 41, of Stretham, denies murdering Davina Baker, 16, and Jasmine Baker, 13, on 13 June 2007.

Cambridge Crown Court was told Ms Kumari-Baker killed the girls as they slept at home.

The judge, Mr Justice Bean, said the defence would argue she had "diminished responsibility" for the killings.

He said they would claim she was suffering from a "serious abnormality of mind" when the offences occurred.

I've done something terrible Natalie. Please call me
Rekha Kumari-Baker's answer-phone message

Prosecutor John Farmer told the jury that Davina was stabbed 39 times in a "frenzied" attack.

Ms Kumari-Baker, a hotel worker, then attacked her younger daughter in similar fashion, he said.

Mr Farmer told the court that, after killing the children, she got dressed and twice went out in her car before ringing a friend to say: "I have done something terrible."

The court heard there was "much contention" between the defendant and her ex-husband over the care and custody of their children.

Jurors were told one theory was that Ms Kumari-Baker wanted to "wreak havoc" on her ex-husband by killing the girls.

Davina Baker, 16, and her sister Jasmine Baker, 13
Davina and Jasmine were said to be sleeping when they were killed

Mr Farmer told jurors Ms Kumari-Baker bought the knife she used to kill her children at an Asda supermarket in Cambridge on 11 June 2007.

He said she had woken early on 13 June and then gone to the girls' bedrooms and murdered them.

After killing the girls, she got dressed, got into her car and drove towards nearby Ely, the prosecutor said.

Ms Kumari-Baker then returned to her home, "showered and cleaned herself up" then went out in her car again, he added.

Shortly before 0630 BST she telephoned a friend and special police constable Natalie Barford and left an answer-phone message saying: "I've done something terrible Natalie. Please call me."

Ms Barford went to the defendant's home and she was arrested.

Confession note

Mr Farmer said the breakdown of Ms Kumari-Baker's relationship with her partner, Jeff Powell, may have acted as a trigger for the attack.

"The end of the affair was a trigger to put into motion the mindset that was going to lead her to murdering her daughters."

He added that the defendant was "concerned" that her children were spending time with her ex-husband's new girlfriend Kadi Kone.

A note found at the home of the hotel worker following the discovery of the bodies, and signed "Rekha", read: "Sorry doesn't mean anything now.

"I've killed my two daughters. I did not want them to get hurt like I did.

"Jeff hurt me so much I cannot explain. He found it difficult to compromise at times but I loved him so much.

"My kids will not be a burden with anyone any more."

The case continues.

define mentally well? isn't it when you don't deviate from norms of thinking, cognition, action...

oops meant to type PD

I thought you were stretching the term a little, hob

mentaly well is when you don't have a mental illness. They'll have done pysch assessments on her and presumably found there to be no mental illness.

Even if she did have a "mental illness" it would still need to be proven that it contributed to her crime, having a mental illness doesnt always mean you are not responsible for your actions.

Theres a world of difference between someone recieving command hallucinations and someone who has PD traits.

IMHO

whats PD traits please pinga?

Yes, exactly, there are many different types of mental illness.

When things like this happen, and a horribe crime is committed, to automatically say the the person must be mentally ill seems to indicate a view of mentally ill people as people who are prone to committing violent crimes, and also a view of mental illness as something that isnt quite as real as other medical conditions, in that people feel happy to leap to the conclusion that someone is 'mentally ill' without any real evidence.

I just find it a bit stigmatising towards people with mental health conditions.

I agree Tiger.
People are diagnosed with mental illness on the basis of symptoms not solely their behaviour or actions.I wonder if the same assumption would be made about men who murder their children.

hobgoblin, the judge presumably would be compelled to listen to the evidence of the expert witnesses in this case-psychiatrists who found her not to be exhibiting symptoms of mental illness.

psychcentral.com/personality/

tiger i do sometimes think like that, but not as such to put a stigma that i think all menally ill people are potentially violent killers, but simply because the violent act which has been committed (in this case specifically or in similar cases) just seems so beyond comprehenison to me that i think they can't be the actions of a sane human being.

I really hate it when people automatically assume that someone who commits such a horrific act must be mentally ill. As if that somehow exonerates them from what they have done.

Women are certainly judged more harshly for these types of crimes, however I think this is perhaps because women are seen as more maternal and less likely to commit such crimes, so when a woman does, it's seen as more shocking and thus more worthy of judgement. Also, often in cases where men murder their children they also commit suicide themselves, and thus the time for judgement is limited to the time of the act (ie there is generally no trial), and also the fact that the man has committed suicide continues the theory of mental illness, as generally suicide is seen as an outcome of mental illness.

Even John Hogan did try to kill himself at the same time as his children, thus giving weight to his claims of mental illness.

I think people assume someone must be mentally ill to want to do such heinous crimes. I think it's part of trying to understand how anybody could possibly be so evil/twisted etc. It's very understandable and it's not necessarily to exonerate the culprit.

It's also a catch 22 situation. If you're a murderer, then you're not really normal, are you, as considered normal by our society? Or in a normal state of mind at the very least. So, are you mad or mentally ill to be a murderer? Just because you don't commit suicide afters doesn't make you any less mentally ill.

I'm more sceptical of the assumption that women are somehow softer, more maternal, less likely to be cruel etc. I that that's a myth and that given the 'right' circumstances, like those that enable men to be wicked and cruel and evil, women are just as capable of it. Perhaps it is the circumstances that help to create women acting in such a way that are less frequent in occurence.

And this is an horrific story. I for one think the woman must be absolutely barking mad to have done such a terrible, evil thing to her children.

I think to some extent we label people who do these kinds of things as "mentally ill" (or "evil") because it's less scary than thinking that any ordinary "normal" person could do such a thing.

Because we and our friends and family are all "normal" people, and if "normal" people could do these things, then any of us could do them too, in the right circumstances.

It's less scary to think that there's something inherently "different" about someone who could do this - some "difference" that we can label and diagnose and protect ourselves from.

Otherwise it's all just too scary and random.

I think that what you have said is correct, Muminscotland. Unfortunately if people are labeling people as 'mentally ill' because they dont want to think it is something that 'normal' people would do then that also implies that on a fundamental level there is a belief that 'normal' people dont become mentally ill.

very true tiger, not only that the shouts of "mentally ill" imo belittles those who are suffering from a mental illness.

I think my personal issue with the claims of mental illness is that it somehow implies that we should feel compassion for someone who commits such a crime because "they were mentally ill," whereas I personally can feel nothing but contempt for someone who murders their children seemingly in cold blood.

I'm confused by your last statement, if they're mentally ill then there's a good chance if they do something like that it's not in cold blood.

If it's in cold blood with no mental illness I feel no compassion whatsoever.

But to do something like that, wouldn't you have to be mentally ill? Can someone be considered 'normal' who commits murder?

no you don't have to be mentally ill. Mental illnesses are real medical conditions, being evil, bitter, twisted aren't.

To say that only people who are mentally ill would do something like that only helps to increase the stigma attached to mental illness and creates a twisted picture of it.

There are plenty of horrible, nasty, vile people in this world who have no mental illness.

I don't think there's anything normal about murdering your teenage children. But that doesn't automatically translate to 'mentally ill'. People are capable of being entirely morally bankrupt whilst fulfilling all the categories of sanity that modern living can provide.

WinkyWinkola

Where would you draw the line? If murderers are all mentally ill what about attempted murderers? rapists? Armed robbers? Fraudsters? Careless drivers?

and also I think the defence of "mental illness" is so wildly used now that those that are suffering from a genuine mental illness when they commit a crime are not taken as seriously.

or should I say their genuine mental illness is not taken as seriously.

As people we are all capable of morally incorrect behaviour, but its societys expected norms and learnt decent behaviour that enables us to make a choice between wrong and right.

And thats the main difference "its a choice" people make to behave in such an awful way.

Theres alot of people who violence is the normal behaviour... they use guns/threatening behaviour/knives as an acceptable way of living (i mean acceptable to them) are they normal?

Is it the fact she stabbed 2 young girls? or the fact she was their mum that makes her so abnormal?

Prison is full of people who committ disgusting crimes including murder/rape etc... and most of them have no mental illness.

What gets me is the way the term mental illness is used.. its like saying someone has a physical illness... it doesnt really tell you much.
There are alot of mental illnesses out there, some much more serious than others, none turn you into a murderer.

admittedly the number of prisoners with mental health issues when they enter prison isn't as high as actually in prison - but it's still quite high.

As for your last sentence, I guess that depends on whether there are command hallucinations and the like going on with it as well.