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Teacher questioned over attempted murder of pupil

342 replies

Frasersmum123 · 09/07/2009 20:44

This happened near to me

OP posts:
OrmIrian · 10/07/2009 11:57

" You do not go into teaching expecting to deal with that on a daily basis. "

Nor should you have to

morningsun · 10/07/2009 12:06

Mcsnail I can understand your colleagues may have felt worked up/stressed/angry,even out of control in their heads at worst but I still feel there is a long way to go between that,and viciously attacking a child.

In the NHS over the last few years there has been more awareness of NHS staff safety,and training to diffuse angry/dangerous patients and situations.Maybe teachers need a bit more support in this area.

In this case it does not sound as if the teacher was in danger himself,it appears to have been a non coping stress response which probably relates to him being unfit for work.

Presumably he must have had a medical exam of some sort to return,and also been assessed by the headteacher in some way?

morningsun · 10/07/2009 12:10

Of course if he was not medically unfit,then he launched a voluntary attack on a child causing serious injury which may worsen and is the same as any other attack including domestic attacks or chid abuse.

frogwatcher · 10/07/2009 12:11

When are we finally going to wake up and think 'we, as a society, dont want our children talking to teachers in that way and being totally mean and unsympathetic'. As my father said, there is no way children talked to teachers like that in his day, and to be honest, I cant remember it either when I was at school. It is totally unacceptable, and no teacher should have to put up with it. I accept that the teachers behaviour was extreme and wrong, but I dont suppose for one moment he planned it, but dealing with children like that day in day out is putting the average person in a more vulnerable position of being likely to snap and lose it. I just cannot understand how society has allowed kids to become what they have become with no respect for anybody or anything.

SoupDragon · 10/07/2009 12:35

Did he beat the boy with a weight or did he snap, grab the nearest thing and lash out?

Either is dreadful but there is a clear difference.

jumpingbeans · 10/07/2009 12:41

Im afraid that things like this might happen more and more, as teachers are not allowed to disapline children at school and the children know this and push the boundrys more and more, teachers will snap- don't get me wrong it is dreadful and i feel for the lad and his parents, also the children in the class must have been terrified.

ChopsTheDuck · 10/07/2009 12:56

here possibly throws a bit more light on the situation. It does sound like he was mentally unwell with stress and sympathy should be with him and the child.

Is scary really, it's a wonder anyone wants to teach.

smee · 10/07/2009 12:56

jumping beans, sorry but I think that's a massive catch all you're making and not at all true as it depends on the school ethos and how it's managed. There's a huge difference between schools where we live (inner London), same mix of kids, but completely different atmospheres within. Some schools have have calm atmospheres and the teachers can teach, kids feel safe and included. Others have chaos and much more disruption. It depends very much on how they schools are led and what strategies are in place, but I really don't think you can say schools can't discipline kids these days. Of course they can.

PinkTulips · 10/07/2009 13:10

when i was in secondary there was a business studies teacher who was a bit daft and consequently got serious grief from the trouble makers in class.

one day a girl was pushing him and pushing him, mocking him and being rude and abusive. he shoved her backwards into a wall full force and walked out of the room.

most peoples response was 'stupid girl' and he was back teaching the next day.

kids like that are little gurriers, at some point in their lives they're going to push someone too far and get a beating, it's just unfortunate for that teacher that his life is ruined because he was the one who finally, and to a certain extent justifiably, snapped at the boy.

if parents don't start teaching their kids to respect the adults around them and to treat others with a modicum of respect the entire educational system will collapse and it'll be those kids that sufffer the most without formal schooling.

a teacher shouldn't have to rise above behaviour like that.

they shouldn't be expected to just put up with abuse and violance and always remain calm and reasonable

they're expected to deal with behavior worse than what prison officers deal with yet are told to turn the other cheek and make the best of the situation

slug · 10/07/2009 13:12

"I am frankly terrified by the notion that people believe other teachers are close to acting this way themselves and thinking 'there but for the grace of God'. There are dozens of teachers right now being subjected to abuse and threats in classrooms up and down the country and they are light years away from behaving violently towards the pupils under their care."

Tambajab, it's not dozen of teachers, it's hundreds, every day. The reason so many teachers will not live near the schools they teach in is because students have been known to terrorise them at home. I've known teachers who regularly have eggs thrown at their houses, tyres slashed, cars keyed. It's sustained, deliberate provocation, often condoned by their parents, all done in the knowledge that there are little or no consequences for their behaviour. In the last year, the department I used to work in had two teachers die from heart attacks, and three have nervous breakdowns. This is out of a department of 17. Add to that three deaths from cancer over the last 5 years and you begin to build up a picture of how stressful this job is.

As McSnail pointed out, teachers have very little power over pupils save their force of personality. We all have bad days. Whereas parents can have a bad day with their children, they have access to a range of sanctions and, at the best of times, don't have to put up with more than 9 or 10 children at once. Whereas teachers have to put up with 30 or so children, hour on hour, all day. If we fail to control a class then the emphasis is always on what we have done wrong, not what the children did.

By 14 a child should know what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. If the stories are true about the chanting and provocation, ask yourself this: "Would that boy behave like that to a policeman? "What about towards his parents?" The fact is, they know that they can get away with that behaviour towards teachers because they won't get arrested, won't be grounded, won't get a clip around their ear. Would you work under conditions like that?

Here's why I left teaching. One day I broke up a confrontation in a coridoor between two lads, both much taller and bigger than me. Using, to quote McSnail, my forceful personality, I calmed them down, though this did include a 6 foot 4, 17 year old 'boy' standing toe to toe with me screaming in my face. A normal situation in a normal day in my working life. Later that afternoon that same boy stabbed a fellow student. He had been carrying that knife, though I didn't know it, when he was threatening me, my class and questioning my sexual orientation . In the aftermath of the incident I was asked why I hadn't taken the knife off the boy. Apart from the fact that I'm not psychic and couldn't be expected to divine he had one by telepathy, I have no training in confronting aggressive, violent people. I wasn't wearing a stab vest, I couldn't call for help because this was just a routine incident that happens dozens of times every day and no member of SMT would have come to intervene in what was a routine incident. And I couldn't have left my class because of Health and Safety regulations. Yet somehow it was implied that an incident that happened hours after a confrontation with me was somehow my fault. This is routine, blame the teacher.

Funnily enough, teachers are human. In the face of extreme provocation, with no other way of defending themselves, sometimes they lash out.

NormaSknockers · 10/07/2009 13:46

Very, very sad

Whilst I'm sure the lad was 'no angel' he obviously didn't for a second deserve to be attacked & I do hope he recovers. That said I do have empathy for the teacher, the support that is flooding in from current/former pupils & colleagues alike suggest prior to this attack he was a much liked & respected teacher.

Ripeberry · 10/07/2009 14:11

Slug, i have every sympathy, teaching in a secondary school is very hard. Even when i was a kid myself, i used to try not to get ropped in with the troublemakers in the class and our teachers in the 1980s had a lot of authority and most parents stood up for the teacher.
I noticed it in 1986, that is when for some reason, there was a lot of violence against teachers in my school and when i went to 6th form later that year, even (we) the prefects got backchat and violence from the younger kids.
Something changed in the mid 80s, that's when it went downhill.
But most (normal) adults don't hit children unless they have been severely provoked in some way.
I don't blame teachers for living miles away from their pupils, that would be unbearable to deal with agreesive kids and parents all week and you can't get away from them even in the evening or weekends.
Hats off to anyone who IS a secondary school teacher.

Tambajam · 10/07/2009 14:22

slug - I meant dozens at the precise moment I was writing. Perhaps it was more.

Very valid points when it comes to the fact teachers aren't trained to deal with violence and attack. I agree that is a very obvious area to address. Teacher training can be extremely brief it has to be said. A PGCE with 2 teaching practices certainly skips over the details in places but this is an area which could be useful for some to address. Not sure it would have made a lot of difference in this case though.

I agree with Smee that generalizing about the nature of youth is not always helpful. In the part of London where I taught similiar schools with similiar intake had completely different atmospheres. I can name schools which went through very rough patches in the 1970s and 1980s and are very different places today. I taught in one school which was very hairy initially but once the new head had a chance to get herself established and appoint more of her own staff it completely turned around. It is utterly different today. I still have friends teaching there.

Dumbledoresgirl · 10/07/2009 14:25

Sorry, I went away but I am very sad that my comment "I can't imagine a respected teacher would lash out at an innocent child" is jumped on. That is sooo indicative of the blame culture we have these days. Yes I agree that we don't imagine GPs would murder elderly female patients and yet we have Harold Shipman. So does that mean we must tar all adults with the same brush? Conceive the thought that this teacher was ill and pushed to the limit by a bunch of howling, obnoxious teenagers, no doubt prefacing their comments with "You can't touch me sir!" I can picture it. I am not saying that is the case here, just that it is conceivable.

Dumbledoresgirl · 10/07/2009 14:28

Oh and I am not saying that the child deserved it, or that he will learn now not to cheek teachers (cheek seems too mild a word here). Doubtless he will now be a witness in a criminal trial and when he has seen his teacher put behind bars for his crime, he will think he has even more power than he did before.

abraid · 10/07/2009 14:39

I have great empathy for the teacher.

Some teenagers are little sh*ts. I think it's a very small minority, based on those I know, though. Most of the teenagers I know are courteous and funny and nice to have around.

I hope the boy recovers quickly. Perhaps this will enable some radical rethinking on the way children are disciplined--for everyone's sake.

PortAndLemon · 10/07/2009 14:50

As he still stands a chance of dying and a pretty high chance of long-term brain damage, DG, I think "doubtless" is the wrong word to use in regard to his appearing as a witness for the prosecution...

herbietea · 10/07/2009 14:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Dumbledoresgirl · 10/07/2009 14:53

Oh well PortandLemon, in that case, it is an even more tragic story than I thought.

SexyDomesticatedDad · 10/07/2009 14:57

My DW works in a special EBD school - i.e. it only cocnsists of pupls that get thrown out of mainstream school. Regularly she says some teachers just should not be working there - they don't have the 'right' personality and can just cause friction or maybe not enough training / support. Need to get the right balance between rights of pupils and rights of teachers to discipline them - but also there is quite often a woeful lack of support at home for many of these children.

Not defending the teacher in this instance but there are many times when weak teachers need to be told that job is not for them. Everyone has had experience of school so people think they can teach - the reality of teaching and controlling classes are very different.

All very sad though. It raises many questions about support / training issues for teachers and a general lack of respect in society today.

MsF · 10/07/2009 15:05

why are they saying 'attempted murder'....i would have thought it was 'attempted manslaughter' or' GBH'.

murder is planned. this all sounds like a very nasty 'straw that broke the camels back'. (not a cold planned murder)

this teacher sounds like he 'snapped' ...and as mum to 3 boys with a form of autism...I hate to admit...i can understand someone snapping. A teacher cannot walk away and leave the class when things are too much- he is expected to 'regain control'. We'd all go mad if we found our kids were left 'unsupervised' whilst a teacher left the class to 'calm down'

As a parent i can walk away. (for enough seconds that it takes to take enough deep breaths to regain my control)

nellie12 · 10/07/2009 15:08

I work in the nhs we get training on how to deal with confrontation on how to deal with potentially violent situations. some of which involves recognising the point of no return and backing off from the situation. From what little I know of pgce training this is hardly covered. Having friends who are secondary school teachers there appears to be little practical support available for teachers.

I feel very sorry for all concerned with this incident and hope that it will prompt a government inquiry into how teachers are trained and supported in schools.

castella · 10/07/2009 15:14

although everyone has sympathy with the teacher nobody has mentioned the other children in the class,how must they be feeling. This"teacher" will have left terrble damage to them and they are the ones who deserve the sympathy not the person they trusted.

abraid · 10/07/2009 15:20

Some of them were apparently involved in the incident, too, so I'm not feeling sorry for those particular individuals.

I'm sure there were innocent bystanders, and, yes, terrible for them to see it.

castella · 10/07/2009 15:29

This school is supposed to have a good reputation and opinions on here have already blamed the kids.Stress or ill this teacher should never have been near those kids regardless of how they behaved the school and his employers are to blame not this child

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