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Light sensors cause religious row

1003 replies

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 16/06/2009 21:48

Story here.

Maybe they should just move?

OP posts:
controlfreakythecontrolfreak · 19/06/2009 20:15

ps. my "poor you" was empathic, ud's use of the same word in both posts is imo patronising and rude.

i don's come on mn to be patronised by arsey men... i can get that in rl ta.

TheUnstrungHarp · 19/06/2009 20:16

I took bloss' post to mean that religion and science operate in different spheres and seek to answer different questions, therefore there is not necessarily any conflict between them. Neither religion nor music can tell us anything about the structure of DNA, but they do play a quite separate role in the communication of shared morality and aesthetics.

The ways to live your life are of course many and complex. We all harbour a set of moral values which we may have learnt from our parents, from church, from Marx, Freud, reality TV or any combination of the above. The fact that our values come from so many different sources doesn't invalidate any particular one.

morningpaper · 19/06/2009 20:18

MEN fgs I never recognise them

Who else

reveal your cocks please

controlfreakythecontrolfreak · 19/06/2009 20:19

i don't understand your ? onagar. why should you assume that (a) i'm religious and (b) that i have no interest in the arts??

i am not religious in any formal sense. my dh is jewish. i do consider that life has a spititual dimension. i am very interested in art. ok??

LupusinaLlamasuit · 19/06/2009 20:20

It didn't sound very empathic to be honest. You had just offered a generalisation lumping everyone who questioned religion and superstition together with those who think it is nonsense, labelled it a 'lobby' and then implied we had no imagination or spirit.

And then you just implied I wasn't imaginative all over again just now.

A bit rude, really.

morningpaper · 19/06/2009 20:21

religion is incompatible with the kind of hard questioning that science requires.

that is the maddest thing I have ever heard! If it were true, then science would barely have made a foothold!

Religion and science have precious little to do with each other, TBH

And there are PLENTY of theistic scientists, which, by your defintion, shouldn't actually exist EVER.

controlfreakythecontrolfreak · 19/06/2009 20:24

"fuck off" would be rude....

LupusinaLlamasuit · 19/06/2009 20:25

controlfreaky, what is your problem right now?

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 19/06/2009 20:26

Oh dear, it's all getting a bit tetchy again, isn't it?

vanishes off to watch the seond half of Corrie.

OP posts:
onagar · 19/06/2009 20:27

controlfreakythecontrolfreak. I ask because you suggested that without religion there was no non-materialistic side to life.

onagar · 19/06/2009 20:32

MP, I would, but my mother taught me never to show it to a lady

You know since god is a man you'd think we'd be more popular.

Swedes · 19/06/2009 20:47
morningpaper · 19/06/2009 20:51

I ain't no lady

etc

morningpaper · 19/06/2009 20:53

You know God isn't really a man, you are confusing God with Father Christmas

Although when I was younger I sent my brother a mis-spelled bible quote: "May God fill you with his great piece"

how they laughed, the godless fuckers

onagar · 19/06/2009 20:56

Nice one

Actually I liked it when some people starting saying 'She' because I figured it got up the noses of those crusty old vicars/bishops.

LupusinaLlamasuit · 19/06/2009 20:57

Wanna see mine?

morningpaper · 19/06/2009 20:59
OldLadyKnowsNothing · 19/06/2009 21:06

MP, given the recent mention of penises, perhaps you should rephrase that?

OP posts:
Lucia39 · 19/06/2009 21:11

I note this thread has completely changed direction but I feel I must reply to Rhubarb's earlier post.

Re your Wikipedia links and Suetonius.

The mention, by Suetonius of the expulsion of the Jews from Rome (c.52 CE) because of disturbances instigated by "Chrestus" is found in his biography of Claudius (25:4) and was written during the reign of the emperor Hadrian, (117-138 CE). If this in fact an error for "Christus" [a politico/religious title not a name] it could simply be a reference to some form of localised messianic agitation.

The other startling gap in the near-contemporary record is to be found in the [now lost writings of Justus of Tiberias] a contemporary of Josephus who wrote a Chronicle of the Kings of the Jews from Moses to Agrippa II.

However, this work was still extant in the ninth century because Photius (c.810-c.895) the Patriarch of Constantinople read it and recorded, in his still extant Bibliotheca, a summary of its contents. In this he states that "suffering from the common fault of the Jews, to which race he belonged, he (Justus) does not mention the coming of Christ, the events of his life, or the miracles performed by him."

Now to Josephus [37-c.100]. Much has been made of the so-called Testimonium Flavianum found in Book 18:63-64 of his Jewish Antiquities. This is what Origen [c.185-c. 254 CE] wrote in Book 10:17 of his commentary on Mathew's Gospel:
"And to so great a reputation among the people for righteousness did this James rise, that Flavius Josephus, who wrote the "Antiquities of the Jews" in twenty books, when wishing to exhibit the cause why the people suffered so great misfortunes that even the temple was razed to the ground, said, that these things happened to them in accordance with the wrath of God in consequence of the things which they had dared to do against James the brother of Jesus who is called Christ. And the wonderful thing is, that, though he did not accept Jesus as Christ, he yet gave testimony that the righteousness of James was so great; and he says that the people thought that they had suffered these things because of James."
[NB my emboldening for emphasis]

Here we have Origen, writing in the early third century, commentating on Josephus and attributing to Josephus sentiments that he clearly didn't display. The misfortune of the Jewish people as a result of the death of James is almost certainly Origen's gloss on what Josephus wrote] "and so he [Ananus the High Priest] convened the judges of the Sanhedrim and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus, who was called the Christ, and certain others. He accused them of having trangressed the law and delivered them up to be stoned".

The earliest witness to the present text of these 2 passages is Eusebius [c.260- c.342 CE] the 4th century Bishop of Caesarea and ecclesiastical historian. As has been seen the passage concerning James in Josephus' original contains nothing which would have been impossible for a non-Christian Jew, such as Josephus, to have written.

The position is very different in regard to the other passage found in Antiquities 18.3.3:
"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day."

As it now stands this could only have been written by someone who accepted the semi-divinity of Jesus and his resurrection; in other words, someone who was a Christian. It is unlikely that as a Jew, Josephus would have referred to Jesus as the Messiah - (a) because the Jewish politico/religious title had a completely different meaning from the one ascribed to it by Gentile Christians and (b) to claim Jesus was the Messiah would have been a treasonable statement.

It should also be noted that no form of the Testimonium Flavianum is cited in the extant works of Justin Martyr, Theophilus Antiochenus, Melito of Sardis, Minucius Felix, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Julius Africanus, Pseudo-Justin, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen, Methodius, or Lactantius. Yet these authors were familiar with the works of Josephus.

This strongly suggests that this specific text was redacted or was even interpolated somewhere between Origen reading the work in the early 3rd century and Eusebius referring to it in the early 4th century.

onagar · 19/06/2009 21:11

I suspect that came out as exactly as MP intended it

Lupas, where does the beard go exactly?

LupusinaLlamasuit · 19/06/2009 21:18

Ah, you're mistaking my fake beard for my fake merkin again.

Is it inappropriate now to mention the stoning scene in Life of Brian?

Poppity · 19/06/2009 21:29

Controlfreaky you started it! If you can't take it, don't dish it.
(flounces off to playground to find a prefect)

sorry for ineffectual post, am at work trying to type on a phone, just couldn't leave that unsaid when everyone was getting on so nicely. As you were...

Poppity · 19/06/2009 21:31

And lupus, I am in awe, that post is amazing

Lucia39 · 19/06/2009 21:40

Custardo: "Lucia, do you mean Jesus of Nazerene?"

Had I written Jesus the Nazarene I would no doubt have been accused by some of being pretentious and/or pompous and inaccurate.

Jesus came from Nazareth, whether he was a member of the Nazarenes is another matter.

The Nazarites [more correctly Nazirites] were a body of Israelites specially consecrated to the service of God and were under vows to abstain from consuming wine, to let their hair grow, and to avoid defilement by contact with a dead body. [Numbers 6]. Going by what the NT tells us it would appear that Jesus did not adhere to these rules. According to those accounts he drank wine [the Last Supper, the miracle at Cana] and he raised the dead [although how far defilement went with regard to contact with a dead body is open to interpretation].

Josephus does write of the Essenes and he describes the different Jewish sects in Book 18 of Jewish Antiquities here he refers to them as philosophies. However, there is no extant evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was an Essene. Indeed, given that the NT tells us he had at least one, and probably several, Zealots amongst his named disciples, it seems more probable that he belonged to this fourth group.

GrimmaTheNome · 19/06/2009 21:41

Isn't a fake merkin an oxymoron?

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