I can't believe she will be able to adopt

[2chocolateshoes]

poor child

I don't think people are concerned about adoption, just that a child will be taken out of his/her country/culture and plunged into something alien to them at the age of four.

As an example: Imagine some rich arab sheik cam over here and decided he wanted to sdopt a four-year-old girl in care, take her to saudi and raise her as a muslim? And her family were objecting, saying they wanted to be able to see her occasionally, that Islam isn't her religion or culture and that their own faith was important to them? How would you see it then?

Just because her family are impoverished, it doesn't mean they shouldn't have a say about how a child, a blood relative, is raised.

I don't know much about it, but I gather westerners adopting children from abroad often try very hard to keep that child connected to the culture they were born into.

MorrisZapp: I don't think anyone here is debating the rights and wrong of adoption per se, but rather this specific case or type of case. And I would very much disagree with you about adoption being an altruistic act - the only rationale for adoption is to improve the welfare and happiness of the child. Very happily, in the vast majority of circumstances this also meets with a person or couple's desire to adopt a child but the child's well-being is, and should be, paramount.

Your question as to "why is it ok to have natural kids in any number of less than ideal circumstances, but if it's an adoption, everything has to be flawlessly perfect" is very simply answered. Once a child is born in acquires a set of rights as an individual which it does not have until that point. A very different set of criteria therefore applies to a child and how it is treated.

Another answer may be that preventing someone from having a child fundamentally breaches someone's rights - you need a very good reason to show why they should not be allowed to have one. The right to adopt a child is not an automatic right and nor should it be.

In this case, on the evidence it's hard to say that it is, and more importantly, if Madonna was particularly concerned about the plight of children like Mercy there are many more meaningful things she could do given her resources and profile.

Riven - if you are so concerned about the plight of children up for adoption in the UK or US why did you give birth to 4 kids - why not adopt a couple?

My (adopted) daughter is Chinese and she is as deserving of a family (i.e. me and my husband) as any British, American or African child. We didn't "buy" her (what a foul thing to say). We did have to hand over £5,000 to UK Social Services for them to do the homestudy and we're not rich, we worked hard and saved to make our family through adoption.

Being brought up in an institution wouldn't be good enough for YOUR kids so don't condemn my daughter and Mercy to such a fate. My DD deserves a family who dote on her, not a foster system which pays people to raise her.

And why suggest that Madonna is adopting Mercy because she's pretty? My DD is stunning but beautiful kids need a family too.

Mercy's family didn't want her. The uncles are mouthing off now but what have they been doing this past 4 years? Certainly not looking after her. Her granny is going to care for her when she's 6? Oh really? Why not when she's was 3 or when she's 5.

David Banda's dad didn't want him - he'd found a new wife and was starting a new family with her.

I don't think she should be able to adopt. With all the touring she does and all the travelling for her career, her kids are cared for by nannies alot of the time.

Angelina Jolie on the other hand has nannies too but she isn't constantly away from her kids like Madonna is.

How do you know how much time Madonna spends away from her kids? She tours, yes, that's her job but she can take them with her for some of the time.

I wouldn't have thought so. They are 12 and 8 aren't they? I would have thought they would be at school. Touring and having a career like hers takes a serious amount of time up plus all that travelling too. Not really a stable lifestyle for an adoped child is it? If it was a regular Jo trying to adopt with the lifestyle of Madonna, it would be goodbye adoption.

Madonna's actions in Malawi resonate of imperialism. Sweeping into a country and basically sending a message that it needs civilising, that White (Wo)Man knows best and that what's best for Malawi is to remove one of its future generation half a world away.

This is apparently the first time that David Banda has been back to Malawi and the first time he's seen his father since the adoption in 2006. He didn't know who his father was and no longer understands the local language.

I live in Africa and whilst undoubtedly there are problems aplenty, taking away its children is not the answer. I think the Western world is so used to the nuclear family as a concept that it finds it difficult to imagine any other way to raise a child. But in fact many children are raised within the wider family, with grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins etc all taking on some of the task. Upon marriage here you're not just gaining a husband/wife, you're also gaining an entire family, with duties towards them and they have duties towards you as well. In all probability this little girl has other family as well as the granmother.

David Banda's dad didn't want him - he'd found a new wife and was starting a new family with her.

What's that got to do with anything? If someone finds a new partner and starts a family does it follow that they must not want the kids they already had?

Haven't read all of thread but sgree with those posters who purport the view that this is primarily a selfish and self-aggrandising act. Both Madonna and AJ are complete narcissistic control freaks IMO. They see people as commodoties rather than real people with messy things like emotions and attachments. Madonna of the 2 is more psychopathic, she really does dispose of people once they've served their purpose. Her lack of self-awareness and deluded sense of self worth is almost comical.

AJ is more "messy" emotionally, I think there's some attachment thing going on with her, she's quite screwed up. There's no way they're providing a secure attachment for these children it's v sad. Madonna is also a complete hypocrite, she bans her children from watching TV, is mega strict yet is the epitome of over exposed and over sexualised.

They get away with F**king other peoples kids up because they're rich and American and it stinks.

Why don't you answer my question, Riven? Why bring 4 lives into the world when there are already so many children needing families?

Dotted - David's birth father had found a new wife and got her pregnant BEFORE David was adopted by Madonna. He left the boy in the orphanage rather than take him into his new family.

David looks pretty happy to me

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1166040/Who-Madonna-allows-adopted-son-David-meet-real-father- -doesnt-recognise-him.html

FlorenceofArabia what an odd question

"What's that got to do with anything? If someone finds a new partner and starts a family does it follow that they must not want the kids they already had?" If the kids they already had are in an orphanage while they move on and start a new family I'd say that's a pretty fair indication, yes.

Perhaps you should get your facts right, Riven. Adopters certainly can adopt if they are not infertile and even if they already have kids. Have no idea if DH and I are capable of having children - we chose to adopt.

It is possible to be both pro-adoption and pro-adoption-from-other-cultures, and still be dubious about this one.

Simply because for a child of this age to be moved into another culture is a huge readjustment, she will need a parent figure who is there all the time, helping her to bond, helping her to readjust, giving her the time to regress if she needs to.

This is where I would be curious about the kind of home study that has been done on Madonna. Because in my experience, an home study done on an ordinary adopting parent would be asking very searching questions about how she intends to meet those needs. And that would not be by spending lots of time away from the child's new home. Or by taking the child on tour. A child in this position needs lots of stability.

I am very much in favour of people adopting children who need a new family. But they need to be people who can genuinely meet the needs of the child. It also seems a remarkably short time span to be thinking about adopting the next so shortly after the last adoption was finalised.

Florence presumably you aren't away six months of the year? Presumably your daughter isn't raised by a successeion of nannies?
Presumably you aren't in some dodgy cult?

Presumably you don't already have three other children all fathered by different men and aren't recently divorced from your last partner?

Presumably you haven't just posed for a series of sexually provocative photos where you simulate oral sex with your most recent lover?

I'm "attacking" you (as put it) because your opinion - that it looks like baby shopping - is downright offensive. I'm not defensive at all, I have a beautiful 4 year old DD who became my child through inter-country adoption therefore I will speak up when people are spouting nonsense about it as they are here.

Florence, I have an absolutely wonderful brother who became mine through inter-country adoption, so presumably my views on this are as valid as yours?

I am perfectly sure that if my mother, a perfectly ordinary person of modest means and no fame, had had Madonna's itinerant lifestyle, she would not have been approved for adoption.

Also, she would have been unlikely to have been approved for adoption of a second child so soon after the first.

You are not the only one who is qualified to have an opinion on inter-country adoption.

It is perfectly possible that if she had her second homestudy done in the US she would be approved to adopt a second child now. They allow concurent adoptions as well. For example some Americans who are waiting to adopt from China are, because of the long wait, adopting a child from Ethiopia whilst keeping their place in line for a Chinese child.

She is able to bypass the residency requirement for adoption from Malawi as this can be done if it is considered by a judge to be in the best interests of the child.

It is perfectly possible that if she had her second homestudy done in the US she would be approved to adopt a second child now. They allow concurent adoptions as well. For example some Americans who are waiting to adopt from China are, because of the long wait, adopting a child from Ethiopia whilst keeping their place in line for a Chinese child.

She is able to bypass the residency requirement for adoption from Malawi as this can be done if it is considered by a judge to be in the best interests of the child.

Suedomin...so, if that is the culture...why was Mercy in an orphanage, rather than her caring family looking after her ...surely if one has such large , extended family that cares for you, you would not have to live in an orphanage?

And indeed...if Davids father started a new family, why coldn't David also join them....I also think it does show that teh Boy was not so important to him...

I have also been to the SOS village in Malawi- a great deal of time and effort is put into creating a family unit for the kids and as has been said before there is a continunity of care after they leave at 18. Also the local community can use the facilities at the village.

I also went to see an Action Aid project which was essentially a mud hut in the middle of the village and provision for orphans to come and get a wash and get some food every day. There is an argument it was probably the more appropriate way forward as while SOS villages are fantastic, they can only care for a small number of kids and there are just so many orphans in Malawi. Small scale projects can arguably do more good over all.

As far as Madonna goes, I wouldnt want my child adopted by her. Money obviously does not equal a happy childhood, and in fact I personally feel a lot of money is deterimental. The people Mercy will be mixing with, the lack of need to go out and make your own way in the world, the easy access to drugs, the huge pressures on body image because of the press. Incidentally, in Malawi- 10 years ago and I am presuming its the same now in rural areas-, my backside was not big enough to be really attractive. If you knew me this would surprise you. It was blissful to spent a couple of years just not worrying at all about weigh. I also think from the point of view of personal relationships being the child of a mega star must be very fraught in terms of learning who you can trust and who is using you for money and connections.

I am not romantising African village life, there are many issues, especially for women, but Malawi is in many ways a lovely lovely country to live in - provided your basics are there, people who care for you, food, shelter and education. Malawians can provide the first, Madonna could easily provide the last 3 for thousands of kids.