And if you want to see all that is wrong with organised religion...

[cestlavie]

Just read here from The Times today.

This in a region where 22 million people today have AIDS and where 2 million of these are children who've often caught it from their mothers. Where the average age expectancy is just 47 years old, when without AIDS it would have been over 60.

This is a region where there are almost 12 million children orphaned by AIDS. Where in some counties (like Zambia) up to 20% of children under fourteen year have lost both their parents to the disease. Where almost 2 million babies and infants under four are orphans as a result of the disease.

But whilst every major international organisation advocates the use of condoms to reduce the spread of the disease. And whilst, for example, the WHO said that "consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90 per cent.

The Catholic Church and Pope Benedict, however, not only continue to reiterate that not only is the use of condoms banned by the Vatican but that AIDS ?cannot be overcome by distributing condoms ? it only increases the problem?. Thereby merrily condemning potentially millions more of God fearing Catholics across the continent (and their children) to an early death, suffering, penury and orphanhood. May God in his mercy be praised.

Whitecoffeenosugar - I have not seen a single person arguing with you in a hateful way. What comment did you feel you made that led to that.

Why on eart can't MuminScotland be considered a Christian? Because she doesn't agree with what you do as a Christian?

OK Kewcumber. Awkward choice of a word. Maybe condone would be better.And maybe it's not'most'. Better?

these christians alwyas causing trouble. idol hands and all that - thats why they get a free tambourine with every alpha course purchase

idle not idol

OhBling, go back to my communist comment, that's what I mean, simply, logically.She has a right to think she is a Christian and I have a right to disagree.Give me one example where Jesus promoted extramarital intimacy and I will change my mind.
I never meant someone was arguing with me personally. It's previous hateful comments in general and not only on this thread.

yes that is better but it makes your argumetn look a bit silly - "some none religious people condone promiscuity". Its hardly earth shattering is it?

OH how clever you are Kewcumber. I have to go back to my original statement then,was only trying to please you.

now you just sound slightly bonkers! You don't walk along Oxford St with a sandwich board says "The end is nigh" do you?

Benedict was a dangerous right-wing zealot even in his younger days as bishop of Cologne, Germany.
I vividly remember his anti-contraception, anti-family planning, anti-abortion, in general anti-feminism rants - so no real surprise on the stance on condoms [angr].
How about his reinstating (or whatever the technical term is) this Holocaust denier of a bishop (forgot his name, am at work, should not really be on MN ) who had been excommunicated? Apparently he has apologised for his "mistake", but I am not aware that he has excommunicated him again (or is there some kind of "double jepardy" rule in the Catholic church??).

GRRRRR!!

whitecoffee - I've never said that I think you hate me, and your views on whether or not I should call myself a Christian are irrelevant to me. What I'm saying is that you are the person on this thread who is talking about hate, and talking about non-religious people in terms far more negative than anyone has used about religious people.

The OP made the point, and others have agreed, that the position of the Roman Catholic church with regard to use of condoms by people who may be exposed to HIV is not one which most agencies trying to help would agree with, for the very good reason that it is ineffective and inappropriate to the cultural context.

No-one has said that religious people are fundamentally bad for having religion, or for making their own moral choices about contraception.

You on the other hand are saying that non-religious people are wrong in their choices, and are causing harm to others.

The end is nigh ,I tell you. You're all doomed heathens.

Good thing you don't hate us Whitecoffee - I dread to think what you'd write if you did.

Thank you for your sarcasism OhBling, how very loving of you.

You called me a doomed heathen. Started out with all kinds of sarcastic comments aimed at cucumber and have made it very clear you don't approve of anyone. I don't feel any need to be loving.

You're being silly OhBling!
My doomed heathens comment was actually a joke in response to Kewcumber's joke about mad sandwich board lady, which was very funny, I took it in good faith and I didn't want to leave it without response. I also thought it would be a good fun way to end the exchange.
Why do you hate me so much OHBling ?
English is not my first language so maybe my style is a bit misunderstood.
Why would you say I don't approve of anyone? It's so not true.I'm a nice person in rl,you'd like me I promise. Do you agree on every subject with people you socialize or even indeed family members.You're still loving to them, arent you, I am.
I have just started posting on mumsnet but am completely put off , probably to your relief. So easy to misinterpret someone's intentions.

sarcasm not sarcasism - you can tell I'm not native

If we changed the word Catholicism in many of this posts on this thread to Islam or Judaism the majority of MNers would be up in arms yet somehow they are acceptable in relation to a Christian religion?

MrsFogi that is a spurious argument,since it isn't the jews or the muslims telling us loudly to avoid condoms IN THE FIRST PLACE..sigh...I'm afraid that's the leader of the catholics so don't try the poor hard done by catholic line grrrr

I'm confused whitecoffee as to why you say that MIS is not a Christian. Is it because she says she doesn't condemn homosexuality or sex outside marriage. Surely if she follows the teachings of Christ then she is a Christian? Those being to love thy neighbour and not to cast the first stone etc.
I genuinely believe that if Christ were alive today he would be a raving leftie.

I also don't think religion is the problem. It's the power crazy misogynists who 'run' them.

but if catholics follow the catholic religeon they don't need condoms to prevent aids spreading.

therefore those who are sppreading aids aren't good catholics - so the popes message is not as important as the people on this thread would have.

But surely any form of religion should recognise that even the most well-meaning followers may be less than perfect at obeying all of their requirements? After all, it's a basic tenet of Christianity that people are prone to error, and there are therefore mechanisms for confessing and being absolved of your failures to follow what is expected. Therefore, they have to expect that many Roman Catholics will have sex outside of marriage. Saying that they shouldn't is all very well, but doens't recognise the real world situation.

custardo - you said what I was trying to, but put it much better.

Why do people consider Catholics to be racist?

I understand that a lot of people consider Catholicism to be homophobic, but as I understand it the church is against sex outside of marriage. Or is not marrying two people of the same sex homophobic - do Sikhs, Hindus, Jews, Muslims marry people of the same sex?

Yes Custy, good job you are much more articulate than me

LS - I can't remember if it's actually written anywhere that 'Thou shalt not be gay', but it seems generally frowned upon (i know my mum is supremely against homosexuality, but i can't ask her why as she has Alzheimer's). Soddom and Gommorrah (sp?) keep springing to mind.

I would never cast a stone at anyone. Remember the expression ' Love the sinner, hate the sin'. I would not condemn anyone because they don't live up to the set standards, gosh, I fail myself everyday though maybe not in most serious matters, but still.
But Jesus did say to the woman (the stoned one), go and do not sin again. He did not say go and live as before with no concern to my law, actually,go spread the word directly contradicting my teachings and you will be my good disciple.
Jesus was very very strict when he spoke about divorce for example,you just cannot contradict this or you simply don't read the bible.So my argument is a person cannot claim to be a Christian and believe in divorce because two people don't get on... It doesn't make sense at all.
Of course one can fail and count on God's mercy and understanding but not profess beliefs directly opposing Christ's own words.
A lot of people have very fluffy view of Christianity where Jesus is this ever forgiving, loving person and anything goes( well, He is forgiving , but there are conditions, like you need to regret and try abandon your wrong ways and the wrong ways are clearly explained ). It's simply not true,this Jesus with no demands whatsoever, you need to read the bible and see for yourself. It's not so simplistic.
Henry VIII, too, considered himself Christian though he changed the long standing rules to suit his desires.
You just have to be prepared for critisism if you profess beliefs very contrary to those held by absolute majority of true to the bible Christians, whether Catholics, Baptists or Evangelicals. They do differ in some aspects but not issues like extramarital sex.