And if you want to see all that is wrong with organised religion...

[cestlavie]

Just read here from The Times today.

This in a region where 22 million people today have AIDS and where 2 million of these are children who've often caught it from their mothers. Where the average age expectancy is just 47 years old, when without AIDS it would have been over 60.

This is a region where there are almost 12 million children orphaned by AIDS. Where in some counties (like Zambia) up to 20% of children under fourteen year have lost both their parents to the disease. Where almost 2 million babies and infants under four are orphans as a result of the disease.

But whilst every major international organisation advocates the use of condoms to reduce the spread of the disease. And whilst, for example, the WHO said that "consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90 per cent.

The Catholic Church and Pope Benedict, however, not only continue to reiterate that not only is the use of condoms banned by the Vatican but that AIDS ?cannot be overcome by distributing condoms ? it only increases the problem?. Thereby merrily condemning potentially millions more of God fearing Catholics across the continent (and their children) to an early death, suffering, penury and orphanhood. May God in his mercy be praised.

'May God in his mercy be praised'

Well, that's what's wrong with the completely autocratic Roman Catholic organised religion....

cestlavie - you make an excellent point.

Brought up as a strict Methodist I completely lost it with organised religion after being forced to go to church 8 times a week during my teenage years and basically being told I was a sinner if I ever had any alcoholic drink, ever smoked, ever had sex before marriage, ever gambled or even if I played Pool on a second hand table that had ever been in a bar!

The world is not made of absolutes and I do not understand religions that ignore the practical realites and the wider implications of their absolutist creeds.

and a lot of the people in there helping will also have been motivated by religious belief

I dont unerstand Catholicism and why it beleives as it does in these regions, clearly its responsible for a lot of suffering. This is what happens when religion takes the words of mere mortals as God's message.

There's good in many religions, but it gets obscured by the evil men do in the name of faith.

using a condom increases number of people infected by aids? How?

Broadly, I agree that the Pope's message is ridiculous and totally unhelpful, however, if he is talking to "god fearing catholics" as you refer to them, then those "god fearing catholics" should, in theory, already be abstaining from extra-marital sex and remaining faithful within marriage - or should be listening to the pope insist that they do. If you are catholic who is actually doing what the catholic church tells you when it comes to marriage and sex, then yes, you probably are protected. As a catholic, the use of condoms condones sex outside of single couple marriages...

If you are anything else, the pope's advice becomes pointless.

I do wish however that religions would move on. Society changes - and I don't think that God would have expected anything less.

Sorry - did that make sense? I meant if you are NOT catholic and trying to live by Catholic rules, then the pope's advice becomes pointless.

I saw some mad harridan getting really worked up on Ch 4 news last night. It was quite fun actually, but she did her side no favours.

I still remember the then Pontiff telling Catholics that they could use condoms to avoid AIDS so long as they had a hole in. WTF? No wonder the Church has less credibility these days.

Maybe it is peoples' morals and promiscutity that need to be looked after rather than just AIDS prevention

Really Rosbif? So obviously because your moral standards say that you should only marry one person and sleep with only that one person for the rest of your life... obviously the rest of the world should think the same?

Clearly, any cultural norms, societal issues or socio-economic variables have no bearing here whatsoever? Africans are just immoral and if they stopped being immoral they wouldn't get Aids.

Gosh, why didn't I think of that.

I am absolutely gobsmacked that this kind of attitude even exists. If you're catholic, go ahead and listen to the pope's opinions but to dismiss the rest of the continent because they don't buy into it is unbelievably short sighted, provincial and racist.

Well yes, as AMumInScotland says, that's what's wrong with the Catholic Church. There is plenty wrong with the Catholic Church.

That doesn't show me anything wrong with "organised religion" per se.

From what i've read a great many of the women with AIDs / HIV have never been promiscuous in their life; if my God punished te partners and children of promiscuous (! it only takes once you know) I'd be ashamed of Him. Fortuantelt my God doesn't, it is humans that create this misery and humans who wish to withold the simple means of controlling the epidemic.

I agree with AMumInScotland and georgimama. You have pointed out a valid problem with the Catholic Church. That doesn't automatically mean that all other organised religions are also inherently bad, you know.

Actually it is a lot to do with promiscuity (because there's not a lot else to do, little education, books, television), prostitution (cheap, easily exploited women doing it for them and their children because they are literally starving).

Oh and not mention the biggest problem which is ignorance - like the myth that if you rape a virgin Aids will be cured - this leads to toddlers being raped.

Condoms can't solve the above but we should give them billions of them to help in any way we can.

And yes of course the Catholic church are wrong in this respect.

"Thereby merrily condemning potentially millions more of God fearing Catholics across the continent (and their children) to an early death, suffering, penury and orphanhood."

But surely the church would argue that if they didn't have sex outside marriage (as a God fearing Catholic would) there would be no need for condoms, and Aids would never spread. If only every one on the planet lived saintly monogomous lives......unrealistic but a nice idea if your celibate anyway.

you're

Jux - was the mad harridan Joanna Bogle, by any chance? They usually wheel her out when they want the "stridently patronising lunatic religious gobshite" angle.

What else do you expect from a bunch of men who don't have sex, or families, or children and don't actually live in the same world as the rest of us?

have you been to the Vatican? a gold, gilted protected bubble paid for by others.

In your average office this group of sexist, racist men would be up facing a tribunal!

oops should add homopbobic to complete the trinity!

I feek sorry for the faithful souse of an unfaithful spouse if that makes sense...
they aren't "allowed " to use a condom, or expect one to be used.
So the unfaithful partner then ifects them with HIV....

and the Pope thinks that's fine does he?
]FFS

Then isn't he problem not just the pope but he people listening to him...doing what so many 'Catholics' do in this country - listening to the bits they want to but ignoring the whole message.

The fact is that Catholicism codemns sex outside marriage, and that marriage must be monogamous. Using condoms would (assuming the people involved had not had previous sexual relationships as that would be against their religion) not be necessary as the married couple would both be virgins.

Unfortunately only part of the message seems to be heard - the part which says 'don't use johnnies'.

not news really....but utter bollox of vatikan/pope/catrholic church, that much is true....

their whole anti- contraceptive stance is rather unhelpful in those kind of areas....