Israel - a 2 state solution - discuss

[lisalisa]

I believe the only way forward is for a two state solution.

Who else believes this is a resolution to the conflict and , if not, what solutions do you believe will bring peace?

Its not a 2 state solution for Israel!

Its a 2 state solution for the area. Sorry to be pedantic, but I need to be.

I go with it -

My knowledge is limited too but I can't see what other solution there is?
They don't seem to be able to live together anymore and there is so much hatred on both sides. They need to be separated.

Deciding on the borders of the states will be a complex matter!

Actually the jews and muslims lived together in peace in Palestine before Israel was ever there. The borders belong to the original inhabitants of that land, and they should decide on the best solution.
The only ones who believe this is a two state solution for all indivuduals in the area, are either extremely naieve, stupid, or just hate Palestinians.
This is a solutions that will suit the super-powers of the West who are rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of finally having a presence in that area and don't give a thought about injuries or deaths on either side.
Can you not see it?
The jews and muslims can not controll the chaos, lets go in and take over.

Maybe I'm naive then.

I would love to see peace in that area more than anything else and I am so not a Palestinian hater!

I am so angry and sad about what Israel is doing at the moment but thats for discussion on another thread.

Like Rev, I just can't see how they can live unified. Its such a complex situation.

excellent analysis (by an Iranian born writer) showing how the Palestinian people are being used as part of a wider extremist Islamic movement, that Hamas is not interested in a 2 state solution because it's true aim (funded by Iran) is the eradication of Israel and the global spread of their version of Islam.

I agree, MM. I read that piece earlier.

of course that's the solution.. but what about borders... right of return... the settlers... access to water...

If there were, as lisalisa suggests literally two separate countries - any further rocket attacks would be viewed by the world in the same way that France attacking Italy, for example, would be viewed. Ie. Israel would have an unquestionable right to defend itself.

beforesunrise, these are exactly the kind of issues that Israel and the US could work on, but which Hamas and their supporters wish to avoid at all costs because peaceful side by side living with Israel is the opposite of what they want.

revjusta, that's a really reasonable post.

lol, not surprised. I'm in a funny old place about this, for a number of reasons, as I've indicated elsewhere. It's just always nice to read messages which avoid most of the cliches surrounding this.

Rev, I think I am being thick, because I cannot make sense of this paragraph

"The trouble is I think that the rest of the world does not particularly care about supporting one or other nation state unless they see good reasons for doing so, that Israel is basically a NICE COUNTRY DOING ITS BEST and not a repressive nasty state that spends all its time bombing schools and killing innocent people."

Could you rephrase it to help me?

The rest of it makes good sense as far as I can see, indeed over the last few years it is a sort of description of what has happened to my opinions.

When I was a young teenager (13 ish) I read Mila 18, and Eli Wiesel's books, and was very pro-Israeli. Then I became aware (at secondhand because I met a lot of Palestinians whilst working abroad) of some of what was going on in Gaza and the West Bank. This lead me to revise my views of the situation, and to a lot of reading of the history of the region. Not to mention my interest in the work of CPT and the EAPPI volunteers (the latter particularly because of the links with Quakers)

If Lisa is still posting I would be very interested in her response.

Thanks
OK, now I understand. That looks like a reasonable representation of what could happen to international/public opinion.

Well, I'm not Jewish (and I know hardly any Jewish people) and yet I feel a need to protect the Jewish people on an instinctive, tribal and religious basis. This is because I've studied history, and anti semitism, "the oldest hatred" is a unique and relentless human persecution.

I also don't believe that the Arabs have a greater claim to be the "natural" inhabitants of this land any more than the Jews do. They both have historical claims, and both claims should be respected in a 2 state solution.

I sincerely believe that if Israel were left in peace, they would show themselves to be a humane and decent people. The trouble is that they have never been left in peace, and the rocket attacks by Hamas over the past few years (preceeded by years of terrorist bus bombs etc) is the kind of harrassment that makes their lives impossible.

I don't agree with the present campaign in Gaza. I don't agree with innocent civilians being hurt and killed, I think it's counter productive, and playing into Hamas's hands.

I'm hoping that Barack Obama will start negotiations for a radical 2 state solution which will somehow bring a viable state for the Palestinians and peace for Israel.

Revjusta, the fact that Arabs hate Israel does not make them anti-semitic, it makes them anti-sionist. They want the destruction of Israel, not all jews. I don't think you should make such generalisations. I have heard zionists call muslims pigs, and they teach their children the same thing, I know however that this does not apply to all jews.
Also, once again you only see the situation from an Israeli perspective, what about the rights of Palestinians. Also human rights are not just fluffy nice things, all humans deserve basic rights being met and that includes Palestinians.
You continue to sicken me!

Deeeja. The call from the Hamas leader three days ago was for 'the killing of Jewish children worldwide'. Not Zionist children. Just Jewish.

I've been thinking about how they would define 'Jewish'.

Would it be anyone with a Jewish surname, Cohen etc. Or Jewish children whose parents went to synagogue? How about children with one Jewish parent? Would they be half-killed eg maimed for life?

I don't think you can say that it is just Zionists who are targets when high-profile Jews in the UK have been targeted, and warned by police to maintain their security.

Not that I see Israel as an evil place wreaking havoc in the Middle East - it is a complex problem, with no easy solutions (self evidently, or they would have been found by people of good will before now!)

Whilst growing up I knew more than one person who had survived the concentration camps - not all of them Jewish - and have some empathy with the real 'tribal' fear that if Jews don't protect their own, no one else will. After all, historically no one (or rather very few, let us not forget that there were a few people who did what they could) protested at the genocide. The silence was deafening. And shameful.

However, I think that there is a feeling growing that this is no justification for Israeli actions towards the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank (indeed that their history should make them more, not less understanding of the conditions in which the Palestinians live), and that the constant harping back to the feeling of vulnerability stemming from the holocaust (and from 1948 and 1967) is something which Jews and Jewish Israelis should 'get over'.

I am not sure that I am expressing this well, and I do not think that Jews should be expected to forget their history (nor do I think they could), nor that the rest of the world should ever forget just what man's inhumanity is capable of, and what happened in Europe, not just during (and immediately prior to) the second world war, but also further back in history. I live near York. I never walk past Clifford's tower without thinking of the Jews who took refuge there hundreds of years ago, and took their own lives rather than face the baying mob outside.

I do not however think that this history excuses injustice in the present.

What do you think Rev? Lisa? Anyone else?

I spoke to an Israeli last year who said that the Zionists are a PITA.

Journeys home from work are held up with them gridlocking roads by burning matresses etc and most of them are American, anyway.

Deeja,
Rev has been most eloquent (on another thread)in the defence of Palestinian Human Rights.
She certainly does not see the conflict only from the Israeli perspective - as you will see if you read the other thread here