That thorny old chestnut.... fox-hunting

[MrsSeanBean]

Not that this is particularly in the news at the moment but it's never far away. And with Boxing Day approaching I need to ask the good people of MN for their views on this.

I hate the idea of hunting. But I also hate snaring / poisoning.

I know people who are really nice decent folk who I am sure would never intentionally support cruelty, yet they believe that hunting is a good thing?

Is it really more humane to chase a fox to its death than to shoot it?

I am just an old softie I know, and I do appreciate that 'pests' need to be controlled. I would hate to think however, that my anti-hunting stance is actually supporting other more barbaric practices.

i didn't want to get drawn into this one, but I can't help myself!

The only 2 incidents of cruelty that I have witnessed when hunting was when a "sab" (who are apparantly all for preventing cruelty to animals ) hit out with a sign they had made, and the stick it was attached to went into my friends pony's eye which later became infected, and meant that the poor pony had to be destroyed and also when trying to put hounds off the scent they were spraying aerosols into their faces

How Kind!

caz, the people who work for the hunt here are mostly tenant farmers; when they're too old to farm they are chucked out of the landlord's farm; they have no where else to live.
There are landed gentry here who own swathes of land, with masses of tenant farmers; it is completely feudal; and goes with the territory of the hunt.
These farmers also are the beaters for the shoot.
Personally, I think this "country" way of life has outlived it's usefulness, and is wrong.
The miners way of life was taken away from them.
For a rich man's hobby, I think it's time to think of something new.

As to the only cruelty you have witnessed being that, you must hunt a very sheltered hunt. Here, they are renowned; and, contrary to the myth they would like to propagate, that they are popular locally, everyone hates them. Many farmers hate them for trampling their land, and assuming they have that right. they stink. And they're hypocrytes.

thats disgusting Caz. When I sabbed care was taken not to upset the dogs or horses and we actually rescued several lost hounds and returned them to the Hunt Kennels. Plus, the pack was so far ahead once we stopped them going onto a main road. Least the Whippers-in thanked us that time. It was Hunt Followers who were the aggressive ones.

I didn't notice hunters marching for the miners when THEIR livelihoods were taken away.

of course you didn't. Wrong class!

that's ridiculous plum. tenant farmers are not just chucked out. some people get priviledges attached to their jobs, a few get houses, more people get things like laptops, company cars, mobile phones, which they have to give back when they leave a job or retire.

If people know that they will not keep their home when they retire surely it is sensible to make provision for that while working, like i have to do now by paying into a pension scheme which will give me an income when i don't work.

what would you suggest we do without the country way of life? concrete the whole lot and import all of our food?

Oh here we go ...hunting argument descends into a class battle.

Of course keeping a horse costs a lot, its a question of compromise. Lots of other sports cost a fortune...but class is only every trotted out for those with horses.

Do you know how much a premiership football season ticket costs? Yet horse owners are vilified spending money on their animals.

...Oh.. and indeed... lets look to that 'working class' sport of greyhound racing for a lesson in how to look after animals.

..and the land owners argument....lets give the land back to its real owners, the tenant farmers... hang on.. didn't that just happen in Zimbabwe.. and that worked well.

How come dog fighting and badger baiting was outlawed then?

ohdamn- well- round here it has happened that tenant farmers get a very raw deal.And there are some very wealthy landownwers who own much of the land. That's how it is.

Eve- glad to see there are still supporters of feudal system......ZIMBABWE? What? Such a good comparison. I'm sure plenty of white landowners would love it to have stayed Rhodesia- tenant farmers/servants/colonialism/hunting... I see your thought pattern. Some lovely terrier men just like Mugabe round our way too.
Hate greyhound racing too. Two wrongs and all that ....
Anyway- if you don't admit it's a class thing you're burying your head.

Eve- do you really think that rich barons should inherit the land, and workers should pay rent to farm the land, and when their working life is done, bugger off?
It's called feudalism. And it still seems alive and kicking; lords, peasants,serfs vassals and feifes It's really not very different from medieval systems. Lots of duffing of caps etc. Very low wages for menial jobs- but at least they have a job I suppose during the shooting season at any rate; everyone knows their place. A simple world Eve, where, when they,ve saved up enough money from beating the Lord's grouse for him and his friends, they can go and blow it all on a ticket for a premier match and a couple of pints like good serfs.

plumandolive - I applaud what you are saying about the tenant farmers and here in the Perthshire area of Scotland this problem is severe.
The feudal system is alive and kicking, rent rises to go up by almost 50%, few new tenants as the land prices are too high and every single farmer ripped off at 'waygo'.
Tracts of our land are taken by the landowner and no compensation given yet we have to stand by like bloody serfs and watch the guns trample on our winter crops.
Fox hunting is illegal here but game shooting is not.
I hate it and I loathe the mindset with a passion.

We were given a bottle of whisky as thanks for 'allowing' shoots on our farm.... Neither of us drink.

Gentle- thanks for that; I really feel for you; many of our friends here suffer in the same way, but there is a fear of criticising or complaining, because very often, the tenants can just be asked to go.
I think it is a hidden scandal, which not many people know about; some of the contracts are written up on scraps of paper, or were verbal; there was an instance of friends of ours recently, who had some very scanty agreement with the wealthy lanlord, who wanted the farm they had farmed all their life, brought up 4 children, (two disabled) back for his city son; as luck would have it, they found an ancient letter , allowing the family to stay while they were still farming the land, and the landowner had to capitulate.
The landowners used to provide work for their tenants families too- saw mills and small businesss which weren't profitable enough, so they closed them down, and a lot of young lads have nothing. If they want to live this landed gentry life, they should at least support the families who live on the land, or go. This is where the arguments of people like eve fall down; or ohdamn- who thinks the serfs have "privilidges* How f-ing patronising- privilidges until it's not convenient.....

Anyway- Happy Chrsitmas and all that!

I used to edit news footage, I can tell you that trawling through the RSPCA hidden camera footage of hunts, trying to find a few clips that weren't bloody or sickening was very difficult. It haunted me.
This talk of "a sporting chance" sickens me too - what I hated seeing the most, was when the fox "won", by escaping down a hole and then would be bolted out again - only to get chased for it's life again and ripped to pieces by the dogs when it was exhausted. Nothing sporting about it whatsoever.

The arrogance of humans is quite breathtaking really. We build everywhere, decimating hedgrerows and countryside containing the natural pray for foxes, (small birds, mammals like rabbits, mice, voles etc), then complain when they rattle our bins or eat our chickens (who if we are to imprison, we should clearly do it better).

It's not our place to decide who should live or die, especially when we are hunting for fun and the fox is (apart from the odd coop incident) hunting to survive.

JJJ,you have made some excellent points about people feeding foxes ect.We live in the sticks and a neighbour of mine came home one day to find a white van blocking his farm gateway.Hes asked the driver what he was doing & the guy said he was releasing foxes.The farmer objected to having them released on his land,because of his livestock,but the driver said that he was from the RSPCA,he was going to let them go & there was nothing the farmer could do about it.

That night,there was a commotion in the yard,the foxes were trying to get into the bins-so the farmer came out & shot 2 of them there and then.We think they must have been urban foxes-the RSPCA must be dumber than dumb to release them in the countryside,they had no idea of how to survive,and foxes are territorial,to dump them in a strange place & to get someone else to do the dirty work of getting rid of them was cruel.

The RSPCA have long had a reputation for dumping problem urban foxes in the countryside & now I know it is well deserved.