That thorny old chestnut.... fox-hunting

[MrsSeanBean]

Not that this is particularly in the news at the moment but it's never far away. And with Boxing Day approaching I need to ask the good people of MN for their views on this.

I hate the idea of hunting. But I also hate snaring / poisoning.

I know people who are really nice decent folk who I am sure would never intentionally support cruelty, yet they believe that hunting is a good thing?

Is it really more humane to chase a fox to its death than to shoot it?

I am just an old softie I know, and I do appreciate that 'pests' need to be controlled. I would hate to think however, that my anti-hunting stance is actually supporting other more barbaric practices.

Earth worm - Depends why they on death row!

Hunters.... listen: you can hunt all you want, have your fun racing around, even dig up if you want (as long as you muzzle the evil little dogs. Just pop them into a nice wicker basket and send to the Mrs Sean Bean home for elderly and sick foxes. I promise to keep them safe and well fed and they won't kill your livetsock.

THIS IS THE SOLUTION I TELL YOOOOU!

Unethical to kill rats, foxes, rabbits? But happy for your cats to kill endangered songbirds? I'll leave you to your very strange world where logic has no place.

Callisto are you really applying your ethics to a cat. Do you think cats understand ethics. I think you are the one who is incredibly strange.

I have never entered into a debate re fox hunting as I find it too emotive but having read the threads here, I can only conclude that there is absolutely no justification for blood sports, absolutely none.

Hmm, MrsSeanBean, if you're against all terrier work, will your sanctuary be large enough for the 80 million rats which are now estimated to be living in the UK (hmmm, bubonic plague, anyone?). Actually, I've kept pet rats and they are fabulous little creatures, but I'm not keen on an infestation of disease-ridden wild rats and will continue to encourage my terrier to dispatch them when he comes across them. My terrier comes from working stock (all grandparents were hunt dogs), so he is thoroughly evil . And that's how I like him. Coz actually he is soft as butter, unless he sees a rat, rabbit or fox. Or next door's even more evil bird-exterminating feline. OTOH, have to say that I have always felt that digging for foxes is somehow rather suspect and cubbing is just vile. And when I was a child and lived next to woods owned by the hunt, we used to sabotage their earth-blocking efforts as best we could.

Also, here is a true story about another "evil" little hunt-bred terrier that we had when I was a teen. Every morning about 6am, my mother would let the dog (a JRT-type hunt terrier) out into the garden - and most mornings it would find the fox and chase it into the woods. This went on for years. Until he and the fox both got rather old. Then, one morning after my mum had let the dog into the garden, she looked out of the window and saw the pair of them sitting on the lawn together. This morning social continued until the fox eventually died (of old age, presumably - the hunt never got him, or the local farmers. We found his body one day in the woods and the dog rushed and lay down beside him).

Callisto, I think you are missing the point. Cats (and indeed other predators) eat their prey, or if they don't are killing from instinctive behaviour (need to hunt to eat). When did you last see anyone eating a fox, rat, or indeed a wild (and possibly diseased) rabbit? I'll also leave you to your world where wilful cruelty is ok. IME people who are kind to animals are generally far nicer people to know.

Bolshy, what I find evil is sending encouraging terriers to dig out foxes for some perverse 'sporting' pleasure. I am sure they make lovely pets. Lovely story about the dog and fox being pals BTW [fmsile]

I still say FOX SANCTUARY and will continue to do so. Call me loony, call me illogical, I really don't mind - but you'll never call me cruel. (That I would mind.)

aw, Bolshy, that's a lovely story.

I suspect the proponents of hunting know perfectly well that their arguments don't stack up. Foxes kill chickens? Newsflash - we kill far more than the entire fox population every would, and we keep them in cruel, unspeakable conditions.

Animals don't have a code of ethics? Newflash - they are animals obeying their instincts.

Cats kill songbirds? Newflash - the claim that cats are responsible for the decline in songbird populations is a. a lie and b. pretty bloody cheeky given what human beings have been up to in terms of destroying bird habitats and food supply. It's us keeping our gardens tidy and modern farming practices that are to blame.

Animals are bad? Newsflash - no animals have ever driven an entire species to destruction. We've driven dozens.

Cats hunt birds, foxes hunt anything they can get hold of, but human beings have a choice about eating meat and causing cruelty to animals.

Maybe you'd care more if they were your chickens that the fox was killing.

No, I can distinguish between the moral culpability of human beings for cruelty and the natural behaviour of a wild animal.

Old/sick foxes will venture near humans and take chickens (easier option) and ignore the fields stuffed full of rabbits. I would rather those foxes were culled and not after my chickens, you wouldn't, so I think we will have to agree to disagree!

if a fox is a problem, go out and shoot it and pen your chickens in properly (3 of my hens were taken by a fox. My own fault) And we live in the middle of a city.
Having 40 poeple on horses and a pack of dogs is ineffcicent and they also don't actually want to catch the fox early cos they want a good gallop.
They can do that without killing an animal?

Fox-hunting isn't something I've ever done, and it's not particularly something I have very strong views on one way or the other- which people are often surprised about (because I'm a vet, they think as an "Animal lover" I will be aghast at the thought of killing a fox) But through my work, I've kind of seen both sides- I've worked lambing on the farms where baby lambs were taken by a fox, or the chickens were decimated, but I also agree that animals will be animals, and you can't change their natural instincts.

Although actually, you can- personally I think the worst thing to happen to foxes is their increasing urbanity. Misguided people in towns insist on feeding them (one of my clients proudly informed she she cooked a whole chicken and left it out- er...foxes can't digest cooked bones, and since they have no access to a vet, might end up dying through her so-called kindness!) So apart from feeding them a diet which is not always suitable for them, they are also responsible for luring more foxes into urban areas, where they are far more likely to be run over . Gradually we are breeding a generation of foxes who will have lost their hunting and survival skills, and are increasingly town/ city-based, which is human's interfering with the natural order of things yet again- albeit well-meaningly, but with a real lack of thought.

I'm not trying to be nasty, MrsSEanBean, but do you think foxes would actually be happy living in your imaginary sanctuary? They are wild animals, and are (IMO) happiest when allowed to be just that. To me, ANY human interference (including feeding them etc) is potentially harmful.

p.s., a) I don't have a shotgun and b) my chickens are penned in properly but foxes can climb and dig. Incidentally, the fields next to where my chickens are are HEAVING with rabbits.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Hunting is natural selection. Unfortunately foxes are pests and need to be controlled in some way. Since the hunting ban I see so many more foxes that have been shot in the leg/shoulder etc and bled to death, or skinny mangy things that look like they have starved to death. That is cruel and unecessary, hunting works whether you agree or not and without knowing the ins and outs of it I dont see how anyone can make an opinion on it, for or against.

Did anyone see Molly Dineen's film, The Lie of the Land earlier this year? It made a very good case FOR foxhunting. I cannot find a link to watch the film, but here is a fair synopsis of it...

the lie of the land

we have a fox sat on our kitchen roof fairly often. My hens are now completely and utterly fox proof so he can look but not touch!

IMHO hunting with dogs helps a healthy and strong population of foxes to remain.

There are some interesting arguments here

Callisto
Where we live, there aren't enough foxes for the hunt to chase, so they dig up the vixen and her cubs, kill thge vixen, and keep the cubs in pens on "conservation land" ( the public aren't allowed to go there.
This is common practice.
The hunt were seen cutting fences on a farmer friend's land a day before the hunt, so they had a free run.
They have often allowed the hounds to rampage through people's land and gardens, killing cats and small dogs.
What you say is the "party line" of the hunt and is complete rubbish.

needmorecoffeee - exactly- poor animal husbandry is the cause of foxes getting chickens.
And it is a sport, on the whole a rich person's sport - it's mostly about class;( keeping horses in livery costs an arm and a leg, keeping them at youself is pretty expensive)
Where we live, the social event, the excitement, wife swapping tales etc is all wrapped up with the thrill; they make me sick...nd they make me laugh.
The terrier men are cruel, ( and that is a class thing too- the workers are the terrier men)

Even if there are more people from "all walks of life" who follow the hunt ( the line they like to peddle to us) it is run by the establishment, always has been and always will be; they are furious with what they see as lefty townies* in Westminster interferring with their country traditions.
The hunt is a political battle, and has very little to do with vermin control.
They are arragant beyond belief, riding and destroying people's land, killing their pets, because they've always done it.
The rights of royalty to hunt where ever they wanted still hangs over the issue.

Hare coursing is another "country sport" which still goes on and is difficult to police.
These magnificant creatures riped to pieces by lurchers for sport.
And lamping badgers too....
Time for it to stop. All of it.

How is it a 'sport'?
I agree with Plum.
(used to be a Hunt Sab but can't do it in a frigging wheelchair or I still would be)

so you wouldn't be furious if the government passed a law that took away your job, your house, your hobby - in essence your life, possibly if your father and your father's father before him had done it too?