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Domestic Abuse and Care Proceedings - the AWR case (another mum on the run)

319 replies

johnhemming · 21/12/2008 18:52

Hopefully this won't happen to any of the readers, but another mum on the run story has been publicised in the Sunday Telegraph

Here
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/3868100/Mother-flees-abroad-with-her-son-to -escape-social-workers.html

I have put additional information on my weblog here
johnhemming.blogspot.com/2008/12/arw-mum-on-run-with-her-children.html

This is a case which will interest anyone who is looking at how to contest Hague Convention proceedings in public family law.

I know of two cases like this. The other one has been publicised in The Times, but I cannot find it at the moment.

Camilla Cavendish has also written about DV/DA and Care proceedings
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/camilla_cavendish/article5050750.ece

OP posts:
N1 · 31/12/2008 18:51

More South than the Bluesaphire's R....much more South.

BlueSapphire77 · 31/12/2008 19:05

Tis me

Can't call myself that any more since i decided to behave

BlueSapphire77 · 31/12/2008 19:08

They asked DS how he felt about DD being removed 6 years after the event so wasn't as much low as a waste of fuckin time.

He and his friend ordered everything off the menu and cheesed the sw off by saying stuff about his driving like miss daisy.

Like mother like son

They have asked him about the baby and if he is pleased and he was like, yes i am but only if the new baby gets to see R more than i have that was terrible to hear...

BlueSapphire77 · 31/12/2008 19:15

BlueShoes, this case conference was for an unborn baby lol

they realised fairly quickly that they were going to be a bit red in the face if they continued to pursue it so backed down without so much as a word.

Doesn't bother me, i simply find it amazing that, having removed my daughter from my care for simply feeling guilty about her being abused by someone i entrusted with her care, that they should rear their ugly little heads 7 years later to try it on with new baby.

Oh, and as SW admitted (shame, didn't tape this) the interest in new baby is basically a roundabout way of getting involved with my family again to find out why someone who spent the best part of 7 years burning them at the stake had suddenly given up and gone away.

Bless..i do believe they missed my hellraising

N1 · 31/12/2008 19:19

I was an idiot. I meant o ask if you heard from Rebel recently. I got you and her mixed up.

BlueSapphire77 · 31/12/2008 19:46

don't be calling yourself an idiot
Emotional abuse that is

Nope heard from no one hun haven't been online for donkeys

Hope you're keeping ok x

gothicmama · 31/12/2008 20:52

john hemming please can you campaign for more resources to help work with families sucee, sometimes funding is only available for 6 weeks which frustrates sw and families. outcomes from care aredire foa a number of reasons one being the lack of high quality foster carers who are there for the right reasons.

Judy1234 · 01/01/2009 00:37

The powers are draconian and the spurious grounds on which a child can be removed are very scarey. The advice must be for all of us never to go anywhere near a social worker, a non molestation order, the police or any other official about our children or any of us could find ourselves int he kafkaesque situations of so many parents, including fathers denied contact with their children which are just as pernicious (and sometimes caused by lies told by mothers after separation).

I bet you could take any of our family set ups and with the right psychologist find something that is amiss and work it into a perfectly good sounding report to remove our children.

My half way house solutions are better because if say the child has a live in supervisor at least the family stays intact. Why not let families say pay a live in au pair £80 a week to snoop on them, video everything if social workers are so concerned that otherwise the child wuld be removed? There are many many options than removing a child and I know many parents would pay, even take on second weekend jobs if that were the price for keeping their children with them. Even those with money who can pay for their own psychiatric reports in contact disputes post divorce still have problems when the "authorities" get involved. We have far too many laws which any of us potentially breach and we're fine unless and until someone in power has it in for us and then they could throw the book at us because there are not enough checks and balances on that book.

johnhemming · 01/01/2009 09:59

If we didn't spend so much on the cost of care proceedings there would be funding available for support.

OP posts:
blueshoes · 01/01/2009 10:30

Xenia, I agree.

bluesapphire, you just made some excellent points in another thread about your expectations of an effective SS (23:39) and suggesting improvements and programmes supporting better parenting (00:39).

Is it ok if I cut-and-paste them because I feel they are equally relevant for what we are discussing here.

BlueSapphire77 · 01/01/2009 15:28

Yeah lol help yourself.
Those of us with experience of dealing with these wankers SS people is that we see the clear need for change having been on the rough end of the stick, unfortunately while you are IN the situation you either feel powerless or too angry to see some things clearly .. or to raise them in a way that will make the SS listen.
I know some of my complaints led to better outcomes for parents and children in dudley, this is great, because one person benefitting in some way from this crap is cool with me.

johnhemming · 01/01/2009 15:33

Justice for Families is working to set up a regional structure to assist families facing the Kafkaesque world of care proceedings. If anyone wishes to help others with their problems could they please email [email protected]

OP posts:
TWINSETinapeartree · 01/01/2009 17:58

I was a victim of physical and emotional abuse as a child. I desperatley wish I had been taken into care as a child, not because of the physical abuse but the emotional abuse which has left a huge shadow over my entire life.

I had a huge breakdown when I had my own dd as my own abusive childhood came flooding back to me and I was genuinely clueless on how to raise and love a child having never had that for myself, with the excpetion of one adult I was kept away from.

To this day I have huge confidence issues and parenting is an ongoing struggle for me, as someone else posted I am self taught. I think I am a good mother now, I put my whole heart and soul into it and my dd is showered with love and affection but I think I could have been a much better mother if my own childhood has been better. It infuriates me that my older siblings were taken into care but my mum was able to move and then have more children and she could keep them.

I do understand though that it is hard to act on somthing as vague as emotional abuse. Perhaps if things like homestart were around in my mums day my life may have been better, I doubt it tbh but it is possible.

After I had my dd I had a huge breakdown and was completely inneffective as a parent, I phoned social services and asked for help. They did nothing and made a decision over the phone that I needed no help. They said to me "Is your child in danger?" i said no but I would like some help ( I was suicidal and very very unstable) and they said we think you are fine can you phone homestart? It turns out I was fine and could cope but what if I hadn't?

BlueSapphire77 · 01/01/2009 18:10

I am sorry to hear about your childhood. It should be a magical time with good memories, unfortunately for a lot of adults now, and a lot of children, this is not a reality.
I was the one who posted that i was self taught..this takes more strength than you realise..to change the way you view life, the way you react to your kids, pretty much everything, and you have to find a way to turn it all around without support from anyone..i mean, you can't, say, go to your mum and ask her advice, this i found hardest..how can you ask someone who is abusive for advice on how to do things differently from them?
Maybe yes, if surestart or homestart had been available things may have been different.
If you had been taken into care, you might have been lucky enough to find a good foster carer, one that kept you in their care, with the odd respite or something..however, FC's today don't get a fat lot of support to keep a child in their care any more than the original family do, well maybe a little, they get offered respite placements, but thats about it.
SS are failing kids in their families, then they remove the kids and fail them again, lots of placement changes, lots of school changes, the outcome for these poor kids is nearly always worse than if they had been left with their families.
Something is seriously wrong with the system at grass roots level and needs sorting out.

Well done for turning your bad experiences into a positive outcome for you and your kids btw

TWINSETinapeartree · 01/01/2009 18:21

Thanks for taking time to reply bluesappire, I genuinely did not realise how shit my childhood was until I was an adult. I was once in a group therapy session and was asked to visualise a happy family memory, this reduced me to tears as I do not have one.

Funnily enough I do go to my Mum for advice, usually practical stuff and she tends to give good advice, I just dont understand if it is all there in her head why she couldnt do it. I know life is not that simple but she did not even seem to try.

I cannot imagine that a foster placement could have been much worse than mine and that I would have come out any more screwed up tbh. I did move a lot and had school changes.

I do not know what happened to my older siblings that were taken into care, I always seem them as happier, more successful and less troubled than me. Maybe I am being naive.

TWINSETinapeartree · 01/01/2009 18:23

But having said all that I have made my childhood work for me, I would like to think I am a caring compassionate person, a bit of a moral crusader who is deeply moved by social injustice. I have worked for homestart and my teaching is driven by the knowledge that my education was the path out of my family.

I do think things happen for a reason.

LittleBella · 01/01/2009 18:31

I think that's the problem though Twinset. I too was brought up in an abusive home, both physically and emotionally and have in the past, felt the parenting deficit as a result. But I have no faith that if I'd been removed to foster care, the outcome for me in terms of my emotional and psychological health, would have been any better. Looking at the figures, there's an argument that it might have been a lot worse.

That's why I have serious reservations about children being removed when they're not in physical danger. Not because I under-estimate the significance of emotional abuse (far from it, I understand exactly how harmful it is, it took me until last year to really feel "whole" for the first time in my life and to feel liberated from the fear that I would never really be capable of parenting my children well) but because I just don't think that there is any evidence that foster carers or children's homes do any better for children, than emotionally abusive families do - quite the contrary, if you believe govt figures on outcomes for children growing up in care.

What I would have wanted, is for my parents to have been taught to be parents. And for them to love me. The state can't force parents to do the latter, but it can do more to facilitate the former. Taking children out of their families isn't doing that and as I say, I just think it's continuing the cycle instead of really seriously trying to break it.

TWINSETinapeartree · 01/01/2009 18:33

I think if my mum had been on her own she may have been able to be taught how to parent effectively. But she chose a series of abusive men, she persistently put her need for a man above the needs of her children. For that reason I think I should have been taken away.

TWINSETinapeartree · 01/01/2009 18:34

But maybe it is all too close and personal to me for comment in a meaningful way.

controlfreakyhohohohohohoho · 01/01/2009 18:45

have copied what was posted by johnhemming above that he considered indicative of the madness of the child protection system....

"The dreadful paragraph 19 that makes the nonsensical suggestion that adoption for an 8 year old boy is best best option is the one to concentrate on viz:

"19. In their summary assessment, which by now included M, the assessment team made the following findings and recommendations in response to issues raised in the letter of instruction.

a) Overall S appears to be functioning well. He appears to be a remarkably resilient little boy who has adapted to his experience of emotional abuse, neglect and distortion of reality over a long period of time.
b) We have one serious concern with regard to his emotional welfare. S can be emotionally guarded and is clearly sensitised to others' wishes and feelings.
c) Although S clearly stated that he wished to live with his mother he was unable or unwilling to provide any positive descriptions of what his relationship with her was like beyond its 'nice' to be with her.
d) Observation of the relationship between S and his mother suggested a disorganised attachment system. There was only a low level of reciprocity between S and his mother.
e) The difficulty in the relationship between S and his father stems from the father's own emotional personality regulation difficulties. S still wishes that his parents will get back together but does not express a wish to live with his father.
f) The assessment indicates that the mother is aware of some of S's needs and can list these as a need to socialise, have a routine, boundaries and a sense of belonging. However, her awareness seems concrete and sometimes relates back to her own needs. There is a strong sense that S's needs continue to be about her own needs.
g) Overall there has been no significant improvement in mother's insight/approach to S since July 2006. Significant improvements are not possible while the mother continues to be of the opinion that much of the previous judgments has been wrong or exaggerated. She does not accept the final judgment and she minimises and excuses and blames others. The mother did not accept that she needed to make changes to her parenting.
h) The mother's new husband, M, was an unknown quantity. He could be a negative or a positive influence. He presented as well meaning but blinkered. He was closely aligned with the mother's position.
i) The intended measures of change were insufficiently tightly described in the care plan and did not target S's emotional welfare or the neglected issues. The mother was given a number of targets to achieve and she has failed to do this on a consistent basis. S has a very high need for consistency.
j) It is in S's best interest for these proceedings, which have been long and drawn out, to be final.
k) The conflict between the parents is unlikely to change in any substantial way and, with either parent, S is likely to experience split loyalties, to be hyper vigilant, untrusting of adults and cautious not to upset anyone.
l) The father does not accept the need for change.
m) The father requires long term psychotherapy for his narcissistic and histrionic personality traits.
n) We do not consider it advisable to return S to the care of either parent.
o) Contact with father and mother should be supervised and should be suspended in the event that either parent is unable to contain feelings about foster carers, each other, social services or other professionals.
p) S needs stability, predictability, security and permanency as well as his emotional, educational and basic care needs being met. Adoption would give S the best possible opportunity for permanency.
q) Long term foster placement would not offer S the same chances of permanency as adoption, but would be an appropriate alternative. There is a risk of the (current foster) placement being undermined by the parents and the court process. There is a danger that this pattern would be repeated in any foster care placement unless the parents change significantly."

Madness."

have to say i am suprised by johnhemming's views and the number of posters who apparently agree. i am professionally involved in child care legal system. i am sure there are people who have been subjected to unfairness and discrimination in their experiences and have sympathy for the very diificult personal stories posters have related here..... but have to say the general view of conspiracy and miscarriages of justice etc does not mirror my lengthy experience.

in the para quoted above from a judgment what does johnhemming think should have happened to this poor boy? if neither parent was considered capable of meeting / prioritising his needs what should a court have decided to do?? send him home despite the assesed lack of change? leave him in foster care despite the lack of fundamental security that would involve for him?? do you all think emotional abuse and neglect are not important? isnt it every child's right to expect that they receive "good enough" parenting?

it is the courts that make these decisions, after hearing all the evidence. decisions that a child cannot live with their family are never taken lightly in my experience and nor should they be. the legal test for a final care order is that a child has suffered or is likely to suffer significant harm, based on findings of fact about things that have happened.... not vague / hypothetical speculation. harm can mean sexual / physical / emotional harm or neglect. significant means serious.

johnhemming.... how have you read "all the documents etc" in particular cases when these are not allowed to be seen by anyone except a party to that particular case and their lawyers and any experts instructed save with the permission of the court?

xenia, i have to say i do not think that if most families were assesed by appropriately qualified professionals they would find reasons to remove their children. that is not a fear i share. i think the threshold for state intervention in private family life is (quite rightly) a high one.

scummymummy, agree with the points made in your posts!

controlfreakyhohohohohohoho · 01/01/2009 18:49

sorry, in all that i forgot to say that i agree the care system / foster carers should be given a lot more in the way of resources and support to make that a properly good alternative to parental care for those who need it.

BlueSapphire77 · 01/01/2009 18:54

Also i can not believe SS response to you. Disgraceful.
However you may find that you had a lucky escape actually..
Back in the day, and even now, the SS have those 'easy targets' mothers with PND, single mothers, ect, people that approach them for help is another group of easy pickings..even better for them if you have a baby, even EVEN better if you have mental health issues they can send their psychologist dogs on the scent of..cutting off any chance of being reunited as a family with your kids, and all to often, sadly waving them off at the end of your 'goodbye' visit before they go off to be adopted, quite possibly never to be seen by you again.

Sound like something that would never happen?
I know of people with really harrowing stories who would back me up.

All you would have needed at that time was some help, maybe voluntary care/respite care, parenting classes, a support worker, and in an ideal world you would have had the SS turn round and say, yes we can help you, ask what services you thought would help your family, bounce a few ideas off you, suggest what they thought would be a good way forward. However, real world, you would have lost your kids, your sanity in the ensuing court case, you would have been undermined as a parent at every turn, the list is endless.

When i saw the SW i have now, i was open with her, despite the past, and the fact i should have known better, and i admitted that the care proceedings had taken their toll in that i felt so run down, so inadequate, and had my parenting brought into question so many times that even i began to wonder if i really was that bad. Only my strength of character and support forums i was on at the time helped me.

Even now my confidence in myself as a parent is a bit wobbly, i am due to have my baby son any day now, and it was THEM that undermined and stripped me of my confidence in my ability to be a good mum to my kids. I will NEVER forgive them. And i will never forgive the 7 years they stole of my daughters' life, or the 7 same years they took my 11 year old sons' mum from him and replaced with a sort of mum who was constantly on the pc or writing court statements, the mum who couldn't take him on holiday because all of my days off from work were sucked dry by court appearances and social services bullshit meetings..the mum who couldn't explain why his sister had been removed from our family despite NO abuse from myself..

Thank your lucky stars they weren't interested in you, if you ask me.

edam · 01/01/2009 19:02

It may be the courts that make the decision, but they are not necessarily impartial. They give weight to the views of those in authority or with qualifications after their name, however barking - see Roy Meadows. They force parents to accept 'independent' experts who earn their living from instructions by SS. Judges (and juries in criminal cases) seem to have difficulty looking critically at medical evidence - remember the ridiculous 'salt poisoning' case? Or the recent case of the babysitter who was convicted despite the child having obvious medical problems?

If this is the standard of behaviour in criminal cases, which are supposed to be based on beyond reasonable doubt, what on earth is going on in the family courts, where it's merely the balance of probabilities?

TWINSETinapeartree · 01/01/2009 19:03

I agree that I had a lucky escape but that is not the point. I was the single mother with PND who was fighting a custody case ( or whatever the modern term is) and it would have been easy for them to take dd.

Luckily I had he confidence to track down groups like homestart and build my own support network. Maybe it said as much on my file which is why they left me alone, of course I dont know.

I think class and eduxcation are a huge factor, I came into contact with lots of mums who did not have my education and percieved middle class lifestyle and social services were very interested in them.

edam · 01/01/2009 19:04

I agree about the class issue, twinset - my sister is a Learning Disability nurse and has seen many examples of SS bias against working class families. I suspect they are easier to bully as they tend not to have access to the best advice, or find it more difficult to negotiate the system.