What do you think of the 5% tax hike for those earning more than £150k - good or bad?

[soapbox]

????

Xenia, that's called self-employment. You don't have to earning mega £ to be self-employed.

Nor hopefully are you entirely up sh1t creek financially if you take a few weeks out (unless of course you are fantastically overstretched, in which I sincerely hope you are never ill), because you will have saved money responsibly when in work to cover both taxes and holiday time. Now, the compulsion to work all the time, and the fear of turning work down in case it's the last work you're ever offered are something else entirely. I think they come with the territory of being self-employed.

I do not however think there is any merit in wrecking family holidays by allowing work to creep into or take over. That to me is a sign of a lack of work-life balance.

Too much imo.

FFS, how about the gvt manage the existing tax income properly first ? There should be plenty of money going into the treasury, it is just being grossly mismanaged/misspent.

BTW, those who earn £150k+ are not the 'super rich'

'But on average people who work harder earn more. He probably works harder than the council office cleaners and secretaries'

d'ya think?

worked as secretary for a charity. because it was a charity I would finish my job, then come home and do more. and at weekends my whole family wold go help out at fundraisers. or at night. Chtristmas Eve whatever.

You may think fool but I see mb and oj have both been helped by said charity over ythe last ear and yes it was worth it for that alone.

Next charity I worked for was no better. Dangerous indeed- we'd go alone into houses where there was a known offender to support the Mum because without us she was alone.

If Mum was only contactable at 8am (often with alcoholics) then we we nt then; if she worked and nlydid evenigs well- yep. I would take phone calls at 11pm at night begging for help, DH completely (for free) alarmed a house against an ex p who was trying to snatch the kids after release from prison.

As for cleaners- quite a lot are self employed and to make any self employed job work you need to slogg. MIL had her cleaning business, she did emply some but she also 'did' herself and it's always at odd hours to fit in with the homeowners.
Nobody on this planet owrks harder than MIL at cleaning (se has severe OCD for a start).
I don't like the 32oman but will giver her the due.

Income has no relation to effort bar for jobs paid on a piece rate ime. Had wel paid jobs where I read magazies. Had poorly paid ones where after the actual hours were done I tok home £1.70 an hour (pre miimum wage).

oh its not all rich people volunteering. its a mix, there is a large percentage from either end of the income spectrum (as thepoor cant afford to work- chiildcare- and sme rich dont need to, but there heck of a lot of others who want to so they find a way.

the peple I feel sorry for are those on 'average' incomes for the area in places that are valued for holiday homes or kudos- teachers in London, Penzance etc etc. In less desirable places there seems to be a correlation between house price and income that is somewhat inevitable and therefore allows some levelling of living costs, but if you are born in certain places you are seemingly at a huge disadvatage (hence why we live away from Somerset now, even though living standards wise we lack childcare friends etc, we can at least balance the books. Usually).

I know we've all moved on from the late night ripping apart discussion of Xenia's character but I have to say something because I cannot believe the hypocrisy of the people on this thread. If Xenia, or anyone else, started attacking you as individuals there would be an absolute outcry but you all seem to think it's totally okay to do it to her. And I've noticed it on other threads. Clearly she doesn't mind and can take it but I feel pretty horrified. Yes, she has strong opinions and states them with little compunction but she doesn't attack individuals and your character assassination assessment of her is totally unnecessary.

Xenia loads of people don't get paid holidays.

In my last job I didn't as I worked on a freelance basis.

If I didn't work we didn't eat just like you.

These things are not exclusive to high earners, just as working hard, being skilled, being good at what you do, training for years, being intelligent, being motivated, etc, etc are not.

Seems like the only real difference that we have been able to come up with is that high earners are often in jobs that generate a lot of money for their employers or they are running successful businesses and having a lot of money generated for them by their employees.

Mmm this is bringing me back to my question about why the government is injecting a huge sum of money into the economy. Something isn't adding up here.

We paid lots of city types lodsa dosh because they were generating big sums of money which were benefiting the economy as a whole.

Said money appears to have vanished into thin air so government is having to put some real hard cash in to replace what turned out to be virtual riches of a gambling token type.

Tell me again how we justify high city job salaries and bonuses? Ah yes, because they generate lots of "money".

I think Xenia is able to cope. Actually I think she's Ok if perhaps in a different world to most people.

As for taking busness calls with a 12 hour baby- why not if Mum wants? seriously. with feet up on sofa and a cuppa?

when ds3 was 5 hours or less I was asked to help with a care plan for a disabled Mum on the ward as I knew more about that sector- why not? ds3 was asleep and I was happy to.

Nomdeplume I guess in these crazy times 150K+ is not considered super rich.

In global terms though 150K and the lifestyle it pays for is what the majority of the population of this planet considering living in the lap of material luxury.

When I was younger I went to Saharan Morocco with some friends. It was a humbling experience and gave me a different perspective from which to consider the concepts of rich and poor, need and luxury.

I don't care if she's "able to cope". That doesn't make it right. Just because she doesn't get cross or shout back or make rude comments back, doesn't mean that everyone else has the right to slag her off.

It doesn't hurt when a five year old hits me - doesn't change the fact that I don't think it's okay.

Hang on sdon't you yell at me- I get on OK with Xenia! I admire her coping abilities! We disagree but I do respect her.

Go fire off at someone that actually deserves it.

I don't even remember who the individuals were who were slagging her off on a very personal level last night, so if you weren't one, none of this was aimed at you. But... all those who were, were out of line and I stand by that. It's personal attacks on her character and personality and it happens all the time and because she doesn't fight back, it carries on.

I'm sure she wouldn't care less that I'm defending her - to be honest, I'm not even defending her as an individual, I'm just annoyed at people making highly personalised attacks on people when, if it happened back, would start screaming about unfairness and more.

Thanks. Anyone who has lived through bringing three teenagers to their 20s and had an abusive marriage and nasty divorce is not going to be hurt by anything on a bulletin board. I much prefer threads like this with different views than where people all agree. The internet enables peoplel to meet others with very different views from the cosy little all like me group lots of peoplel tend to mix togeher whether it's public sector guardian readers, stay at home mothers on benefits or not on benefits or whatever.

No point in arguing over who works longer hours but the bankers, other professionals and people who earn loads do on the whole tend to work longer hours i ntheir work. Parents in effect do double shifts where they work. I remember a period when I was busy and worked, fed twins for mid night feed. Worked to 3am, fed them again, hen went to bed and up with them at 6am. There is no merit in massively long hours and much better to work smart not hard for everyone.

SO pick a job where you earn say £200 an hour and work one hour than £5 an hour and many hours.

Why are we wanting more money out there? To try to head off recession and make it a shorter recession so give money to the poor and they spent (and if you give to teh rich they just save it as they are sensible and the poor can be feckless, not all but some). On the other hand it's prbably more a question that an election is coming up so give money to thepoor and they will vote Brown back in. Annoying people like I am who earns over £150k doesnt' matter as there are not that many of us.

As for lack of sick pay etc if self employed I don't have savings but that was because I married someone who earned less instead of being the money grubbing people most people are who earn less han their husbands as they chose good providers so I had to give him all our savings etc in the divorce.

I have no personal gripe against someone just because they earn, or get paid, an enormous amount of money. And I am hugely concerned for my (higher earning) frends whose jobs or job-hunting may be in the balance because of this situation - facing the loss of your job or future income is a horrible situation for anyone to be in.

But what really makes me angry is the trite and patronising assumption that anyone who questions enormous salaries, the role of banks (and therfore bankers) as a least part of the cause of this mess is not hard working, or less deserving, or has a chip on thier shoulder. "I am, resentful of those who think the world owes them a living instead of getting off their arses to achieve something with their lives" says twinkle1868 - as if the intelligent, hard working people on this thread are guilty of that. Yes, people wanted cheaper mortgages and loans and credit - the wealthy as well as the less well off - and it was banks who lent it! To claim, Twinkle, that it is poor higher earners who now have to unjustly bear the brunt of 'your mess' (your words) is preposterous. As you say, you and your banker DH have made enough out of the situation in the last years to last your whole lives. Before the first boom in the 80's it wasn't common for vast numbers of people even in the city to make pots and pots of money like they have done recently...they earned good salaries and did well - but NOTHING like the massive bonus culture of recent years. So - accuse people of getting in a mess with debt etc etc - but look at how banks and bankers have benefitted. people being able to rush straight from their bonus appraisal to the marina or estate agents for a new boat or house (or even set themselves up fo life at 35) is a new phenomenum - but how easily it has been absorbed as a normal benchmark to aspire to!

Of course gvt are partly responsible, of course people getting into debt is partly responsible...now be honest, divest yourself of your own chip, and admit that banks and bankers raking it in are also partly responsible!

odd, bitter, unpunctuated stream of consciousness from Xenia there. It sounds as you are terribly unhappy about your life. I'm sorry it's been hard for you. Just goes to show that money is not the ultimate problem solver it appears.

Xenia are you saying that the rich save money because they are sensible and the poor don't because they are feckless?

Perhaps the rich save because they have money left over at the end of the month even after buying all they need and more whilst the poor have little or nothing left?

agree with Blu that the constant claims that anyone who thinks society is best served if there is social justice 'is just jealous' is so idiotic, so childish, that is very irritating to see it trotted out so often by those who should know better. Are people who, say think that rapists (say) should serve longer prison sentences/that there should be better conviction rates 'just jealous' that they haven't got away with a crime? Are people who think that children shouldn't be hit, 'just jealous' of people who hit their kids?

Another one here who agrees with Blu.

As mabanana says, I disagree with domestic abuse but not because I am jealous of those who hit or get hit. I disagree with it because it goes against my personal code of morals and ethics.

This is just the same. As I said before on this thread my views on this have everything to do with human decency and nothing to do with envy.

For those stuck to the jealousy argument I would suggest that they either stop judging others by themselves or dig deep into their imaginations and try to understand that we don't all aspire to their lifestyles and values.

The 'jalous' argument is not really part of any intelligent contribution to this, though. It has no part in aking an pobjective look at an arguent, despite your own personal stake.

I am lucky - I bought my first flat just before the first mad escalation of prices in the late 80s and my second in the housing recession slump of the early 90s. I DO NOT now dismiss the misery of those attemting to get on the property ladder for the first time, and calling for house prices to fall, and criticising the ludicrous value to which my house rose last year 'jealous' - I agree with them.

sorry for bad typing!
out of control laptop and finger injury!

Blu, brilliant post.

Bankers thought they were really clever when they came up with their schemes like Collateral Debt Obligations to mask the voodoo finance that they have been peddling for the past several years. They were the ones dangling the cheap loans, 125% mortgages to those who could not afford it and telling them that it does not matter how much you want because we will give it to you. They then packaged up these toxic debts as CDOs and other fanciful schemes and sold them on and made lots of money out of it. They also made sure they paid the credit rating agencies very well so that they, who were unbelievably in cahoots with the banks, made out that these CDOs were good risks!

Only the deluded bankers and other financial maggots think that they should be absolved of any blame. The blame lies squarely at their feet because they knew what they were doing. They set out to deceive and obfuscate the reality of what they were doing for one reason and one reason only - to line their pockets and they did not give a damn about who got hurt.

They should be made to pay for what they have done.

I've said it before and I'll say it again (to anyone, anywhere!) that if someone EARNS £150K+, whether they be a banker, footballer, plumber etc etc, then many people think punitive taxes are okay.

But - if somone LANDS £150K, it is somehow indecent to suggest they should pay tax on it. People are inheriting houses left right and centre, and Labour raise the inheritance tax threshold, and the Tories promise to raise it to £1m.

Surely it is fairer to tax a lucky windfall than someone's hard graft?

And don't give me that grandparents fought through the war blah de blah and saved - these inheritances are purely the result of good timing.

Absolutely Blu, I also think the rise in property prices was ridiculous and unjust and ensured misery for many - even though - gasp! - the price of our house rose dramatically and it meant we could live in a reasonably large house without a very large mortagage. I didn't ponce about calling people who would have liked to be in our position 'just jealous', because that would have been infantile and playground-spiteful.

Spokette, And Elvis is alive, living in a mansion in texas with Princess Dianna.

Do you know what a CDO is? Or how they work? Do you really believe that there was some massive conspiracy going on to thwart the poor, innocent tax payer who just wanted a home and a hot meal at the end of the day?