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Baby P

821 replies

GeraldineMumsnet · 17/11/2008 12:38

Hi, to make it easier for people who are finding this subject very distressing, we're going to keep all Baby P posts in one thread. If you'd like to discuss this subject, then here is the thread to do so. We'll go on the other threads and link to this one. Thanks very much.

OP posts:
thenewme · 18/11/2008 18:59

I feel very umcomfortable with people talking about the parents as if they know them. Naming them, saying they are showing no remorse, etc. Things like that have a habit of coming back to cause problems.

pgwithnumber3 · 18/11/2008 18:59

Kathyis6inches - I have no evidence but going by most folk I now, they really couldn't give a shit what happened to scumbags in prison who are not worthy even of having a mattress to sleep on nor food to eat. I for one would not stop someone giving one of these sick bastards a taste of their own medicine - would you? Do you care for their welfare?

edam · 18/11/2008 19:00

Kathy's right, the irony is the people doling out any beatings will be thugs who have probably hit plenty of women and children in their time.

pgwithnumber3 · 18/11/2008 19:02

connie - are you serious? Blood baiting?! No-one is about to go visit these people and slit their throats. What I am saying is that I do not care what happens to them. End of. I don't have to justify that.

CrushWithEyeliner · 18/11/2008 19:41

blood baiters - fgs

LittleBella · 18/11/2008 19:55

for those who are interested

LittleBella · 18/11/2008 19:56

I just love the idea that armed robbers are arbiters off social justice.

LittleBella · 18/11/2008 19:58

of, obv

OptimistS · 18/11/2008 20:15

The BAby P case has affected me more than any other news story I have come across in my life, probably because my two are a similar age. I cannot even begin to imagine what that poor little boy went through or what on earth was going on in the heads of the perpetrators. But we must try to understand how it happened if we are ever to prevent it from happening again.

Drawing on some really good points others have put forward, I think we have to accept that there our segments in our society that just do not follow the social rules governing the rest of us. I left my ex due to to DV and had a visit from a social worker checking that I was ok and warning me that if I got back with my ex I would have to have a SW assigned to me to check on my children's wellbeing. I didn't need warning, but I am well aware that for every woman who, like me, leaves, there are many more who don't, whose children are being damaged by their upbringing. When this comes to third or fourth generation down the line, who knows what passes for acceptable behaviour? Is this what might have happened in Baby P's home? One of the reasons I left my ex was because I recognised that I was starting to compromise on some of my parenting values in order to keep the peace with my ex. I recognised it early and left when my twins were 4 months, but I had the advantage of coming from a stable, loving, healthy family background and was well placed to see that my ex's behaviour was unacceptable and damaging. I apologise to anyone who feels that I am hijacking this thread and turning it into one about DV, but I really feel that tackling DV will do a lot to reduce instances of child abuse. I personally am of the opinion that we need to start holding classes about it in schools sp that a new generation grows up more aware, less accepting of it, and more willing to break the cycle. Even Baby P's 'mother' and 'step-father' were chidren once, probably brought up in households where DV was the norm, and it does desensitise you over time. Nothing will ever excuse these people for what they have done, there is no justification, no matter what their own childhoods were like, but we must recognise the problem in order to start working on a solution.

Another thought that occurs to me about prevention is the need for extra training and extra funding for SWs working in areas like Haringey. I have had some involvement with SWs through fostering, and I would lay money on the fact that this case would never have happened where I live. The SWs here are very good indeed. But I live in a rural area with few pockets of socio-economic deprivation, so a case like this would stand out early on and even overworked SWs would have seen the need to remove this child. In a densely populated area like Haringey though, with all the problems of deprivation rife there, it must be easy for SWs to not react with the shock that we all feel must have been inevitable. If every child you visit lives in poverty, it's easy to turn a blind eye to the fact that a child is living in less than hygeinic surroundings. If most cases you see are of neglect, it's easy to assume that those latest bruises are caused by mum not paying enough attention rather than deliberately inflicting them. Don't get me wrong, I think that the SW team in Haringey failed this child badly, and someone must be held accountable. I am dismayed at teh blame-shifting that seems to be going on - yes a little boy died and I'm sorry, but it wasn't on my watch so that's ok then... It's not ok. At all! But why did he slip through the net like this? Social workers in this type of setting need extra training, to recognise the coverups that clever abusers often utilise. A 17-month-old toddler should have had a physical check up on every visits from a social worker, not left in a buggy, and a paediatrician examining an at-risk child should have alarm bells ringing if the child seemed "too cranky" to examine properly. There were failings at every level, and if procedures were followed correctly, then the procedures are wrong, simple as. But a witch hunt won't protect future children. Change will.

Just a few thoughts. Sorry to ramble.

Mercy · 18/11/2008 20:18

BB123, you said you have a friend works at Holloway Prison, knows Baby P's mother and tells you that she shows no remorse.

What is your friend's job?

I assume s/he is at a fairly senior level to know this.

anyfucker · 18/11/2008 20:19

optimistS, what a wonderful post

blueshoes · 18/11/2008 20:24

Thank you Optimist for that thoughtful post.

poshwellies · 18/11/2008 20:45

Excellent post Optimist

GColdtimer · 18/11/2008 20:46

Thanks Kathy

Optimist, what a great post. I agree with much of what you said. I too feel that to halt this cycle (the fact that DV is the norm for so many people), education and support is needed early and throughout all areas of society. Someone earlier said that where she lived in Canada there was a belief that it "took a community to raise a child". I believe we have lost this in the UK - there seems to be little sense of community, especially in deprived areas. I am not sure how to fix it but something has to happen to halt the vicious downward spiral so many families experience.

BabyBaby123 · 18/11/2008 20:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

skydancer1 · 18/11/2008 20:49

Yes good post optimist. It's a shame if this post were to just disintegrate into a slanging match. It's easy to go there as this is such an emotive subject but it's not constructive.

CHOCOLATEPEANUT · 18/11/2008 21:28

it comes of no suprise that the mother shows no remorse

evil

Chrysanthamum · 18/11/2008 21:30

Another interesting article little bella but I'm too tired to read all of it. I'll finish it tomorrow. Thanks. The thought of a chain of dv is v likely and valid but v depressing. Will educating people ever be enough to halt this?

OptimistS · 18/11/2008 21:49

Thanks for the nice replies. Crysanthamum, I don't think we can ever halt it, sadly. Unless we somehow manage to achieve a utopia, there is always going to be damaged members of society and abuse at all levels. But that's no reason not to try to fix things, I think. Every time a child is rescued, a drug addict comes clean, a woman leaves a violent partner, a system is changed for the better to spot and protect the vulnerable ? and the cycle of abuse is broke, it's a tiny, but significant victory. Little changes add up, and while we might not be able to eradicate abuse, I live in hope that we can at least reduce its incidence.

fifitot · 19/11/2008 08:34

Abuse won't be eradicated but that is why we need services to protect the vulnerable. Services that work!

ahfeckit · 19/11/2008 10:49

good post, OptimistS. that's another viewpoint I hadn't really thought about, but it's very relevant to this story.
I don't really see the point of us debating what their fate should be, let's face it, the sentence they'll get will never be long enough.We're only speculating just now that the 'mother' feels no remorse for what she has done. But it doesn't look good from what has been portrayed of her so far, she is also verging on sociopathic behaviour herself, as well as the boyfriend.
One question I would like to know though...why has it taken all this time (til Nov 08) for this story to break the news? Why didn't we find out about this sooner???? Anyone??

Litchick · 19/11/2008 11:01

I suspect once the matter came before a court a gagging order was imposed to ensure a fair trial.

ahfeckit · 19/11/2008 11:02

thanks Litchick, that would make sense ofcourse.

BabyBaby123 · 19/11/2008 11:26

it's been in the local press but I think things then went silent as there were other kids involved and it hadn't got to court

blueshoes · 19/11/2008 11:34

ahfeckit, I did read about it fairly long time ago in national press when the news first broke and way before the trial - I never forgot it