Has your under 5 ever been excluded from school?

[AtheneNoctua]

How does a 5 year old get like this? Surely some parents aren't taking their jobs seriously.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7713227.stm

Things that are officially 'zero-tolerance' here in Hackney (permanent exclusion):
-weapons in school (inc. fireworks)
-attacking teachers
-hospitalising other children

Things which get fixed-term exclusion/negotiable
-drugs
-fights

Things which rarely get any exclusion
-repeated bad behaviour.
It is v hard to exclude children, you have to have the evidence (and of support) in place otherwise it can be overturned (know of situation where governors overturned decision to exclude, despite girl admitting assault on teacher - because the incident reports slightly conflicted)

Agree with the stigma, one of the first things we have to do (permanent exclusions) is try to address the feeling of being rejected/self-esteem (even though it was their fault they were excluded in first place ). For some kids, it is a real eye-opener.

Humphrey, there are always exceptions. And of course, there is love shown to many of my excluded kiddies (just loads of other things going on) but I was referring specifically to the idea that loving your kid so much that you don't say no would solely result in excludable behaviour. IMO/E there is usually something else going on at home, or a need being missed.

Am interested in your situation, what happened in your case and why in your opinion?

oh gosh, you get my drift. Too many typos/grammar errors to begin to correct. Must get to bed, been hard week.

My child wasn't excluded, but did demonstrate extreme behaviour difficulties at school.
My comment was in response to AbbeyA's generalisation.

There are always exceptions to the rule HC. The majority of problem DCs don't have love at home and the parents are, at best, indifferent. If a problem DC has lots of love at home at least the parent will, on the whole, be keen to work with the school to make them socially acceptable.
SN comes outside this group-this is nothing to do with parents. They need to be diagnosed so that they can be helped.

at 'problem DC'

Tbh I have seen lots of what I think was meant by 'killing with kindness' parents (of various backgrounds) who don't support school but let their dc get away with it all. They can be difficult in school but too hard to exclude.

BUT I still think, if the love is there, it will all come out in wash... provided no other 'ishoos' of course!

There are 101 reasons (or more)! You can't really generalise, if you do someone immediately falls outside it.
The only important point is that all children should feel safe at school and be free to learn without disruption. If you are going to include everyone in mainstream school it needs proper funding.

I'm at the suggestion that these children aren't loved by their parents.

Me too, TFM - and deeply saddened, tbh.
Blaming the parents is easier than admitting the school system is on its' arse though, I suppose.

And blaming them in just about the worst possible way too.

I think you are reading entirely the wrong things into my comments! I have already said that you can't make generalisations and that there are more than 101 reasons!
I can give you lots of real life cases where the DCs problems are due to a lack of love for the DC-this is not to say that it is the reason in every case. Each case is unique-the child can be loved to bits but there can be trauma. There can be all sorts of issues. I think you bringing personal issues into a very wide generalisation.
If the problems are due to autism, ADHD or other medical problems then parenting doesn't even come into it.
The school system is not 'on it's arse', it was never, ever designed to deal with the sorts of problems that it encounters. I know that I will straight away get critised here, but teachers are there to educate, they are not social workers. You can't disconnect the two and they end up caring for the whole DC.
They are not trained for this.
I was interested, this week, in a job in a special unit and went to look around. I loved it, thought they were doing wonders for the DCs in integrating them in main stream school and think I would like the job. If I could work into it slowly by serving an apprenticeship I would go for it, but as it is I am not going to apply. It would be like jumping in the deep end of a swimming pool and I think I would drown! I would get training once I started but I think I would make major mistakes before I got the experience, and they wouldn't be forgotten by the DCs.
Teachers don't get training (or very little)in dealing with DCs with problems. It is trial and error.
As I keep saying, it is all a question of funding. More schools need nurturing units, they need more staff and teachers need courses. (Supply teachers don't get any courses-they have to pick it up as they go along).

lets "hope" it is only extreme behaviour that gets exclusion for those young ones....but surely exclusion is still NOT the answer....
but, sadly, yes it is, as always, all money it boils down too....which is a shame....!
The children that are excluded for whatever reason will, undeniably, need help....either because they are sn or because of whatever else makes them behave the way they do.....exclusion isn't adressing any problems....I mean, surely when the statement was put down on paper that "All" children have a right to education that would include troubled Kids.... surely by excluding children from school you take a basic right away and that should be illegal?

All DCs have a right to education. At some point you have to act for the majority and they have to be safe and able to learn without disruption.
A lot of people write on here about what to look for in a nursery or school. Think about this scenario if you visit a nursery. You see a DC stamping repeatedly on another DC's hand and not stopping even though the DC is screaming with pain. Nursery staff intervene and the DC doing the stamping calls them 'a f b'and then runs rampage around the room flinging everything off surfaces. The nursery staff have to physically restrain them for their own good (they then have masses of paper work to do to record the incident). You are going to choose a different nursery-I certainly would!
If a school doesn't exclude a disruptive DC parents will begin to remove their DCs.They will become a sink school.
Some schools have no choice except to exclude because they simply don't have the resources.

Sorry-use your imagination with the asterisks-I was sure I had enough in the original.

By AbbeyA on Sat 08-Nov-08 08:56:20
"If a school doesn't exclude a disruptive DC parents will begin to remove their DCs.They will become a sink school.
Some schools have no choice except to exclude because they simply don't have the resources"

AbbeyA are youtalking permant exclusions here?

IMO - temporary exclusions in themselves don't really tackle the problem.

My Son now behaves apropriately at school 99% of the time (apart from some unnecessary giggling and talking at carpet time) - but he is in the same class a several disruptive children. I am quite happy for these children to be in the same class as my DS, even though thier behaviour can be quite at times, because I believe these children deserve the same support and care as my DS received.

I had difficulty finding a new school for DS after his first exclusion, but the school he is in welcomed him with open arms. My point is this school doesn't shy away form problem pupils, aims to help them rather than permanently exclude them, and it certainly isn't a sink school!

People keep taking my wording wrongly. A school shouldn't shy away from problem pupils, but they have to have a programme for handling them and this takes money and commitment (some schools simply don't want them, which is sad).
My DSs went to a school with problem DCs and I was very happy with it because they did extras like anger management and nurture groups.They didn't leave teachers to sink or swim on their own without support. All I am saying is that if the problem DCs stay in the school without support and are free to cause mayhem-parents will start to remove their DCs.
When I supply teach I am quite happy in schools where I know that a TA will be supporting or I can call on help. I never go back if I am left completely on my own to cope, with no back up or support.

Children who are excluded legally have to be educated elsewhere, in a PRU for example, or with home tutors, until they can be offered a place at another school. I believe it is the responsibilty of the LEA to find a place (or provide resources to be tutored at home) - and in our LEA, it has recently changed so the schools have to take excluded children (we previously had relationships with some schools who would take our kids).

Agree that fixed-term exclusions have a different place, IME here they are only used when a seriously clear message needs to be sent. Lynette, what happened with your son? Seems that he can behave 99% now, do you think the teachers were ill-equipped to deal with challenging behaviour?

Btw, can we stop saying 'problem children', please? It's making me a bit . All children have the potential to be problematic, or angelic. IMO it's labelling kids as 'problem kids' that causes so many of the problems.

Problem children is just a term, I wouldn't call them it to their face. If you have a better one to use on here, that we can all instantly understand, then I am happy to use it. It covers a wide range-it just means that they are a problem to the school, however well they deal with it. Excluded DCs seem to be failed completely by the system in most places-this is where money needs to be spent to turn them around.
Mainstream school has to be geared up to the majority whose needs can't be sidelined to deal with a DC who has more pressing needs.
For example I know one DC who was a problem to the school. His parents loved him but had very poor parenting skills and any stability in the home came from his grandmother. The school did wonders for him and he calmed down. Unfortunately his father then died in a motor bike accident and the good work was undone. I actually had a good relationship with this DC, he was in my DS's year and for some reason often chatted to me as he came out of school. I taught his class one day soon after the accident. The DC was very disturbed, he was walking around the back of the class and wouldn't sit down he picked up scissors and was going to stab himself "so I can join my dad". I felt I could help him because my first DH was killed in an accident and I had a fatherless son and so don't shy away from talking about death. However I was supposed to be teaching maths to 29 other DCs-that was what I was being paid to do. I had to call for help and have him removed for someone else to deal with. Sensitive DCs in the class find it upsetting.
The whole system is failing DCs with problems outside the mainstream and will continue to do so without resources. Those who work in that field often get drained -it is emotionally exhausting and they need more support.

Hmm, I prefer 'children'? Or 'children at risk of exclusion' myself.

As a teacher in mainstream and PRU education (in Tottenham and Hackney - so not without it's challenges ), I rather think we have missed the point in education, where we care more about teaching to hit targets than creating happy, well-rounded people (that's not a dig at you, sounds like the right thing to do in that situation, just a general observation). Think there are loads of lovely teachers who do try to cater for all (though also plenty of crap ones, sorry but true). And as you point out, 101 diff reasons - some where school could do more, some where school can only do so much.

And yes, it is draining! Think teachers ought to have 'supervision' like psychologists.

lynette it costs a school money to exclude a child. I worked in a school with lots of violent and out of control children and we just could not afford to exclude them.

That's interesting twinset - I didn't know that!

Umlellala - the school my DS was at was just too overwhelming for him. It was a Junior with 400+ DC's, who all had playtime/luchtime at the same time which DS found very difficult to cope with. It was suposidly a "good" school in a nice area. When he trasfered to the school he was tested to see which groups he should be in, and as he was so over whelmed he didn't write much in the test, and was subsequently put in low groups for English and maths.(I have no ide why they paid no attention to his Y2 sats, but I think it was becuase so many children going into the school had scored level 3)

Because he wasn't being cared for apropriately, or educated aproprately at school he started to school refuse. There were also a few insidents where he was injured on the playgound (one incident involved him comming home covered in bruises as 6 children had had him on the floor and kicked him).Because of this he became extemely defensive - and willing to fight anybody who seemed at all threatening. This was totaly out of character for him - he had been the sweetest child imaginable at nursery/infant school - much prefering to play with girls than boys.

One day, after weeks of school refusal, I begged him to go into school (basicaly becuase I needed child care that day )During the morning he was so unhappy he ran out of school, but found him self on the street, far from home, not knowing what to do, so he went back onto the school field. (This was during break time) Members of staff were aware he had run out, and come back, and asked him to come into the school building, which he refused to do. The head was called to deal with him,and took him by the arm, and asked him to come into school, to which DS said "If you don't let go of my I will kick you in the testicles" .Needless to say the head let go pdq. Two TA's then picked DS up and carried him into the school.DS struggled, and in the struggle one of the TA's was hit on the side of her face.

DS was excluded for the rest of the term (thank God!) - and never returned to that shchool. The head told us the only reason DS was not permanently excluded was that he (the head) was a Christian.

The head had already decided DS was Autistic by the way, but had done nothing to help us get a DX.

So I would argue it is not always the case of parents not taking their job seiously - but can be the schools not doing their job effectively which result in exclusions.

I think it is more helpful to acknowledge that a DC has a problem. As a supply teacher I cringe when I am told ' you have one or two lively characters'! I am then left to get on with it, and at the end of the day I mention a problem with a particular DC and then they smile and say 'oh you came across x then'. I find it much better if they say, you may have problems with x, he responds best to a,b and c and it is best to avoid x,y and z. If he does have an ourburst send a DC for Mrs X who will be in ----. This is much better for the DC too.
If I have 30 children in the class they all need my equal attention. The quiet little girl who just gets on with things shouldn't be overlooked.
My DS1 was in top sets in the comprehensive and as a generalisation there were no discipline problems. DS2 was in bottom sets and he had disruption; he is as entitled to a good learning atmosphere as his older brother. I am pleased that the new Head has tightened discipline and disruptive DCs are removed from the class. They are not excluded, they are worked with, but their classmates can get on in peace.

I seem to be getting a hard time on here, I don't know why. I believe:

1. Schools should be inclusive.
2. Children who are perceived to be 'a problem' (or better term if you have one) need to be assessed and given the appropriate support.
3. The appropriate support may be a special unit and if so the aim should be to integrate them back into the mainstream.
4. Teachers shouldn't work in isolation, it should be a team effort. They need TA support in the classroom for specific DCs.
5. Teachers need courses so that they know how to deal with ADHD etc.

6.It is helpful to start on intervention at a young age and not wait until they are uncontrollable teens.

My only point is that it needs funding. Teachers are not superhuman-some are much better than others but they all need help.

AbbeyA, I don't know why you are getting a hard time on here either! Agree with all your numbered points.

Lynette so for you. I hate big schools, think they are so damaging. I can remember one kid who had been bullied so much, he finally flipped out and brought a knife to school. And so, he was excluded (zero-tolerance - prob the right decision but...), lovely sweet boy but not being looked after . Definitely right that your son wasn't excluded but a message does need to be sent that certain extreme behaviours (including attacking teachers) are not acceptable - whatever the circumstances. It's a really hard one.

Gosh, thinking of some of the kids I have taught break my heart. But this is my point, it is not about 'killing with kindness' and parents setting boundaries, it is about (usually pretty nasty)things going on at home or at school which need to be addressed/talked through.

I found out from one of my friends yesterday that a boy who is no longer at school was expelled from our school due to racial abuse, physical abuse and sexual abuse towards her daughter. She said that when she went to the head, they said they were unable to do anything about it, the children involved were age 7 at the time. Her and her husband ended up having to take it all the way to the LEA in the end. I was and still am that a child of 7 is capable of such a horrible thing and I always thought they were such a lovely family, but he must have learnt his behaviour from somewhere. We live in such a sad world. The friends of the mother no longer talk to this woman and have made her feel very uncomfortable at the school gate, which I think is also shameful.

I am glad you agree Umlellala. It boils down to the fact that if you want the schools to do the job-give them the funding.

In your case Lynette, if it was a big school in a 'nice' area, with a 'good' reputation, I would expect it was high up in the league table and wanted to keep the position. I would ditch the SATs and ditch the league table.
My village has 3 schools (it is more a suburb). The school that my DCs went to was looked down upon by the parents with DCs in other schools because it maintains a modest position in the league tables, of about half way, whereas the other two are always higher. It is lower because, although it has many high flying DCs it has a lot of special needs. I teach in all 3 and much prefer the one I chose for my DCs. The other 2 are getting better with inclusion but they used to actively discourage parents of children with SN. They are still not good at meeting the needs.
I would agree with Umlellala that a lot of cases are heart breaking. Another reason that I am not going to apply for the job in the special unit is that I was told I would need boundries to stop me taking it all home with me-I am not sure that I could leave the problems at the school gate, I think it would affect me.